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LordBlackangel 08-20-2010 10:01 PM

Possible Changes, Opinions, Comments
 
Firstly, to Shadow, as many have already stated - Thanks for making a great product and keeping the post-sale support top-notch.

Some of the topics have been touched on previously in other threads, I know, but my intent here is to get feedback from players (and Shadow) and to encourage these things to be addressed and possibly changed. I ask that people keep their comments on-topic and constructive. These topics are in no particular order:



Strange Leveling/Tier Progression - At first level I can walk through all the levels of a dungeon with no issue. As my level progresses things get inordinately more difficult. At level 20 the first level of a dungeon is exponentially more difficult and the mobs become life threatening. As the monsters get harder, my character should be becoming more powerful. This doesn't currently seem to be the case. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge and don't want to walk over the enemies, but the progression of difficulty should be uniform throughout the levels. Has anyone else noticed this? Comments?

Cave-In's - I get the feeling that the rumble-to-fall time is meant to give the opportunity for people to possibly run away, but there is never enough time for that to happen. If you can see the imminent cave-in and you're not standing right on the edge, you're going to get slammed. Perhaps we can raise the time between when the rumble begins and the cave-in occurs? The damage is also an issue here. Getting smacked for a truckload of damage you cannot dodge or see coming is not conducive to an enjoyable gaming experience.

Suicidal NPC/Escorts - I don't mind escorting people. In fact, I think it one of the more interesting aspects of Din's Curse. That being said, people I'm escorting should not be running head-long into hopeless battles. I don't even take those missions anymore at 20+ level because the NPC is sure to die on the way.

Unbalanced Items/Drops - I know this has been touched on in other threads, but I feel it's worth repeating and adding my 2 cents. My current character is level 30. 15 levels ago I found a dagger which has 50 DPS. You read correctly: 50 DPS at level 15. Needless to say I have not found a better weapon since - and I'm still using it. In fact, nearly all the high DPS weapons seem to be daggers. This is consistent with all items in the game. My leather/cloth drops are usually better than most plate drops (on average). In my mind there should be a definite difference between Cloth-Leather-Mail-Plate in terms of armor value and it should be consistent (I.E. The better cloth should provide armor equal to lower level leather, and so on and so forth). This logic should apply to all items in the game, both weapons and armor. Perhaps adjust for this by giving lesser armor/weapons other abilities? Adjust the attack time to even it out (swords swing slower but higher damage giving equal DPS)? Opinions?

Money Drops - This is personal pet peeve. Why must anything in the game drop multiple coin windows? Does this bother anyone else? Perhaps this can either be coded out or at least given a toggle? Also, on the same note, on some occasions only walking over the money picks it up and in other you need to click it (I think it's based on being in single or multiplayer). Is there a way to toggle this? Can we implement a toggle for walk-over money pickup and single box drops for coins, Shadow? Comments?

Mana-Steal Monsters - They seem overpowered; especially Dark-Elves by way of shear numbers. I don't mind fighting a lot of monsters, but fighting a lot of Dark-Elves involves a large expenditure of mana potions for the reward, making fighting them overly tedious. Perhaps make mana-steal a special attack (1 out of 5 attacks)? Opinions?

Intelligence Stat/Spirit Stat - I don't know what was intended with this, but I feel as though these stats are too similar. Since they increase a few of the same things they don't feel separate. Opinions?

Wizards DPS Skill (or lack thereof) - Fighters have a passive basic skill that increases their damage as a stat (strength) increases. Wizards do not have this and it feels lopsided. I know they get a mana increase as they increase their stats, but it's not the same as a DPS increase.



I cannot stress enough how much fun I've had playing this game and how much I really want to see it grow and evolve through dev/player interaction. Thanks again to Soldak for keeping the ARPG alive.

-Lord Blackangel

DeathKnight1728 08-20-2010 11:14 PM

Lordblackangel said-Strange Leveling/Tier Progression - At first level I can walk through all the levels of a dungeon with no issue. As my level progresses things get inordinately more difficult. At level 20 the first level of a dungeon is exponentially more difficult and the mobs become life threatening. As the monsters get harder, my character should be becoming more powerful. This doesn't currently seem to be the case. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge and don't want to walk over the enemies, but the progression of difficulty should be uniform throughout the levels. Has anyone else noticed this? Comments?

Give us an idea of what you mean with your character isnt becoming stronger. What class/hybrid are you using and what skills type of items?

timeh 08-21-2010 05:12 AM

Strange Leveling/Tier Progression: the world gets more dangerous as you level up. how is this a bad thing? things would be pretty boring if the overall difficulty stayed the same

Cave-Ins: cave ins have been nerfed way way way too much already. there's a sound effect and a visual cue long before the rocks actually fall

Suicidal NPC/Escorts: clear the path before you take them

Unbalanced Items/Drops: agreed. itemisation has been a joke from the beginning

Money Drops: i love seeing a floor covered in coins. auto coin pick up is singleplayer only (and possibly while solo in a multiplayer game, not checked)

Mana-Steal Monsters: learn to dodge attacks

Intelligence Stat/Spirit Stat: INT gives crit, SPI gives resists


i'll add one of my own.. auto targeting
when using a bow, and using 123 to attack while moving, it's annoying to have it target healthstones/crates/webs that are nearby when an enemy is in range

even when there's no healthstones/crates/webs around, sometimes you need to get really close to an enemy before it gets targeted (mouseover works fine, but sometimes you want to avoid running towards them, and the behaviour of R is just as unpredictable as not selecting anything)

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728 (Post 16247)
Give us an idea of what you mean with your character isnt becoming stronger. What class/hybrid are you using and what skills type of items?

At character level 1 you could walk a dungeon from it's first level all the way to the bottom and experience little or no resistance. In contrast, as you're approaching level 20, you begin to feel weaker than you did at level 1. Level 1 monsters begin damaging you rather easily and you quickly get the feeling of being overwhelmed. This strange scaling phenomenon occurs irregardless of class, skills, or items (I've tried numerous class/skill/item combination's). This gives the feeling of level progression not scaling with dungeon level/difficulty. Players want to feel cooler as time goes on. They want better weapons, stats, and skills that make it feel as though they've gotten more powerful. As it stands, my level 30 character feels weaker than my level 1 character ever did, even though he has powerful items, skills, and stats. I also understand that this may very well be an intended effect - and that's fine. I'm just putting in my 2 cents.

In closing, let me be clear: I want the world to get more difficult - but it's all pointless if I don't feel like I'm scaling with it. I want to feel like I'm going up in level and getting more powerful, not simply gaining shiny objects and raising statistical numbers that don't really seem to do much. I understand that this is a somewhat esoteric issue which can be hard to tackle, and I think there is probably many contributing factors which occur at higher levels that may cause this: frequency of more elite monsters, D.O.T. effects such as poison and fire, and sheer number of mobs.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Strange Leveling/Tier Progression: the world gets more dangerous as you level up. how is this a bad thing? things would be pretty boring if the overall difficulty stayed the same

See previous reply to DeathKnight1728.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Cave-Ins: cave ins have been nerfed way way way too much already. there's a sound effect and a visual cue long before the rocks actually fall

I appreciate your point, but I, and many others, disagree. If by 'long before' you mean 1 second, that is not enough time in my opinion. There is a mod which disables cave ins completely, and I plan on using it from now on. With that said, I play co-op with others that I am usually talking with via X-Fire while gaming. With all the talking, we never hear the cave in, and by the time we see it, it's too late. We always seem to get caught in the cave in, sometimes getting hit even though we've moved out of the 'crumble' area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Suicidal NPC/Escorts: clear the path before you take them

If they're alive when I get there - sounds like a plan. Usually the moment I see them, they're mid-death. It's usually more trouble than it's worth. Other posts have mentioned escort/npc missions where people on lower levels die before you can make your way down to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Unbalanced Items/Drops: agreed. itemisation has been a joke from the beginning

Which is why it should continue to be brought up in every thread possible until the devs decide to make a change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Money Drops: i love seeing a floor covered in coins. auto coin pick up is singleplayer only (and possibly while solo in a multiplayer game, not checked)

I'm really pleased that the devs hit the desired effect with you. But lets see this made into a toggle at least. I'd rather have $1 than 100 pennies, and I'd rather not click 1 more time than I absolutely have to in a game that is entirely click-centric. Thanks, but no thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Mana-Steal Monsters: learn to dodge attacks

Dodging an entire room with 10 Mana-Stealing Dark-Elves is not possible - but more to the point, it's not a fun addition to the game in such volume. And let me be clear: This issue is one of the most complained about things within my co-op group. Perhaps limiting the special attacks as I mentioned previously might help. I'm open to other ideas anyone might have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
Intelligence Stat/Spirit Stat: INT gives crit, SPI gives resists

I understand what they do. I was looking for opinions on their similarities, not their differences (which are apparent).


Quote:

Originally Posted by timeh (Post 16251)
i'll add one of my own.. auto targeting
when using a bow, and using 123 to attack while moving, it's annoying to have it target healthstones/crates/webs that are nearby when an enemy is in range

even when there's no healthstones/crates/webs around, sometimes you need to get really close to an enemy before it gets targeted (mouseover works fine, but sometimes you want to avoid running towards them, and the behaviour of R is just as unpredictable as not selecting anything)

Absolutely.

Also, I've never found a reason why I'd want to destroy a healthstone, lifestone, or such. I understand that having an area-attack harm those things lends a certain degree of caution (which is good), but regular attacks?

Seconded. Third. Fouth. :)

joku 08-21-2010 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16253)
Dodging an entire room with 10 Mana-Stealing Dark-Elves is not possible

So don't run into a room and let 10 dark-elves swarm you. Draw them off one or two at a time, or draw them all through a bottleneck so that only one or two can attack you at a time.

And you're complaining about this during co-op? This is what tanks are for. One of you runs into the mob and draws their attacks while someone else deals out damage from a safe distance.

It really isn't that hard.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joku (Post 16255)
So don't run into a room and let 10 dark-elves swarm you. Draw them off one or two at a time, or draw them all through a bottleneck so that only one or two can attack you at a time.

And you're complaining about this during co-op? This is what tanks are for. One of you runs into the mob and draws their attacks while someone else deals out damage from a safe distance.

It really isn't that hard.

No. This wasn't what I was talking about at all. What I was getting at was an issue with dark-elves in particular having this ability and how having to deal with it gets more tedious than fun. It just seems this ability is overpowered compared with other equal-level creatures.

Yes someone could tank.
Yes you could kite them back and pick them off one at a time.
No that isn't hard.

What it is, for me and many of my co-op players, is annoying, tedious, and pace breaking compared to every other creature we fight. In in end it this seems to be more of a personal preference. I can see how this might not matter to some players.

Its not a 'major' issue by any means and seems only to come up in co-op. YMMV.

Max_Powers 08-21-2010 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16252)
At character level 1 you could walk a dungeon from it's first level all the way to the bottom and experience little or no resistance. In contrast, as you're approaching level 20, you begin to feel weaker than you did at level 1. Level 1 monsters begin damaging you rather easily and you quickly get the feeling of being overwhelmed. This strange scaling phenomenon occurs irregardless of class, skills, or items (I've tried numerous class/skill/item combination's). This gives the feeling of level progression not scaling with dungeon level/difficulty. Players want to feel cooler as time goes on. They want better weapons, stats, and skills that make it feel as though they've gotten more powerful. As it stands, my level 30 character feels weaker than my level 1 character ever did, even though he has powerful items, skills, and stats. I also understand that this may very well be an intended effect - and that's fine. I'm just putting in my 2 cents.

In closing, let me be clear: I want the world to get more difficult - but it's all pointless if I don't feel like I'm scaling with it. I want to feel like I'm going up in level and getting more powerful, not simply gaining shiny objects and raising statistical numbers that don't really seem to do much. I understand that this is a somewhat esoteric issue which can be hard to tackle, and I think there is probably many contributing factors which occur at higher levels that may cause this: frequency of more elite monsters, D.O.T. effects such as poison and fire, and sheer number of mobs.

Just to throw my two cents in here - I have noticed the same thing as you. I think that it may have something to do with creatures gaining and improving at their ability to dodge, block, evade or whatever. I haven't noticed them doing that all that much early on, but when they start doing it later it really makes a simple fight last a lot longer. If you are using a slow attack weapon it just makes it even worse.

Along a similar line: I think the creatures ability to deflect/evade/etc is why it seems to me that when I should have a 90%+ chance to hit that I am hitting more like 75% of the time.

I am still fairly new to the game and haven't had too many chars past lvl 20, so this is just my opinion.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max_Powers (Post 16257)
Just to throw my two cents in here - I have noticed the same thing as you. I think that it may have something to do with creatures gaining and improving at their ability to dodge, block, evade or whatever. I haven't noticed them doing that all that much early on, but when they start doing it later it really makes a simple fight last a lot longer. If you are using a slow attack weapon it just makes it even worse.

Along a similar line: I think the creatures ability to deflect/evade/etc is why it seems to me that when I should have a 90%+ chance to hit that I am hitting more like 75% of the time.

I am still fairly new to the game and haven't had too many chars past lvl 20, so this is just my opinion.

This is precisely what I'm talking about and I'm happy to hear I'm not the only player who has experienced this. I think you're right about the dodge/deflect/evade/block from monsters in general possibly causing it. It makes your 95% attack on level feel as if it were much much less. And yes, using a slow weapon makes this even worse. Playing a straight up fighter seems strange when you're drawn to high-speed weapons (daggers) for sake of countering this effect.

Any ideas for the devs on how we can remedy this?

FloodSpectre 08-21-2010 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16246)
Strange Leveling/Tier Progression - At first level I can walk through all the levels of a dungeon with no issue. As my level progresses things get inordinately more difficult. At level 20 the first level of a dungeon is exponentially more difficult and the mobs become life threatening. As the monsters get harder, my character should be becoming more powerful. This doesn't currently seem to be the case. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge and don't want to walk over the enemies, but the progression of difficulty should be uniform throughout the levels. Has anyone else noticed this? Comments?

When I was playing past level 20, what seemed to be an issue to me was the overall damage output of the monsters. It seems like it scales up too quickly, where just a few hits against a fairly well armored character can kill quite quickly. However, I also feel like many monsters ought to have more health per level. I found I was able to use my special attacks almost all the time and typically killed or very nearly killed most enemies in a single blow. I do like their ability to dodge/block etc though. Most games have mobs that die so easily... I'm looking at you, Titan Quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16246)
Unbalanced Items/Drops - I know this has been touched on in other threads, but I feel it's worth repeating and adding my 2 cents. My current character is level 30. 15 levels ago I found a dagger which has 50 DPS. You read correctly: 50 DPS at level 15. Needless to say I have not found a better weapon since - and I'm still using it. In fact, nearly all the high DPS weapons seem to be daggers. This is consistent with all items in the game. My leather/cloth drops are usually better than most plate drops (on average). In my mind there should be a definite difference between Cloth-Leather-Mail-Plate in terms of armor value and it should be consistent (I.E. The better cloth should provide armor equal to lower level leather, and so on and so forth). This logic should apply to all items in the game, both weapons and armor. Perhaps adjust for this by giving lesser armor/weapons other abilities? Adjust the attack time to even it out (swords swing slower but higher damage giving equal DPS)? Opinions?

This is the thing that's bothered me the most about Din's so far. I love the game, don't get me wrong, but I've played a lot of ARPGs in the past and the items in Din's often feel underwhelming, unbalanced, or too out-of-level. Your anecdote about the dagger you found happens to all my characters with different sorts of items.

On top of that, I still feel that the unique class items (Elite+ and Set) are underpowered. The random bonus modifiers are nice, but I think maybe there should be a special list of modifiers they can get, cutting out the weaker or less impressive ones. It really sucks to get a Legendary shield and have a +10 health bonus on it as a random modifier. Some of these items need to have their base bonuses cranked up too. An example of this that I found shortly before I stopped playing (due to technical issues, nothing to do with the game) was Mudbeard's Chestpiece (not sure if that was its exact name). It was a fairly good Set piece, a plate chest armor, and it had a stock +1 Strength modifier.

Furthermore, I've suggested a few times that certain modifiers be restricted to certain types of items and certain rarities. +all stats really ought to only appear on rare or very rare items, and maybe it should even use up two of the item's "mod slots" instead of one. +health should only appear on armor and really needs to be beefed up anyways. I'm pretty sure some modifiers do only show up on certain items though, like -cast time, which I've only ever seen on staves and gloves.

Bak 08-21-2010 01:40 PM

At least some of the complaints (cave-ins, monster dps) sounds like you aren't sinking enough points into vitality. When I was first starting out, I tried putting most of my points into strength/dex (to equip better items w/o using potions) or int/spirit (to have unlimited mana). And got hammered. The game has pretty good balance, in that some strategy has to be used for the unglamorous skills like vitality, armor, and resistance.

Cave-ins and monster swarms pissed me off at first :p, but I'm getting better at the old saying: "He who lives and runs away, lives to fight another day."
(Closely followed by the Daffy Duck saying: "I may be a coward, but I'm a greedy coward." :D )

Max_Powers 08-21-2010 02:31 PM

I wanted to clarify that I, too, am in favor of creatures ability to dodge/evade/deflect/etc.

I also wanted to say that I believe a revamp of the items should be done as well. To often you will have a legendary item....a freaking legendary item!....and you are like " I feel like I should equip this item...I mean it is legendary....but...I can't because this somewhat rare item is just waaaay better".Maybe just make these items drop less often, and then make them a lot better.

MasterMorality 08-21-2010 03:23 PM

Levelling - Why would you not want it to get harder? I don't see the problem, even if it's a bit spiky at times, that's not a bad thing.

Cave-In's - These have been nerfed so many times in the past, they should be left as they are. You'll learn in time to listen and then run like hell. I manage to evade cave ins without too much hassle.

Unbalanced Items/Drops - I think it'd be easier to suggest a better balancing system for this if we knew how the system generates them.

Mana-Steal Monsters - So you're asking for the game to be really easy?

Intelligence Stat/Spirit Stat -Stats depend entirely on the class(es) you choose. usually at least one of them is unnecessary, usually the spirit stat, because that's most confined to the faith based classes.

Wizards DPS Skill (or lack thereof) - Dud, if anything magic users need to be bought in line with fighters. You can clear rooms SO fast with magic spraying, but it's not nearly that easy with combat.

FloodSpectre 08-21-2010 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMorality (Post 16264)
Wizards DPS Skill (or lack thereof) - Dud, if anything magic users need to be bought in line with fighters. You can clear rooms SO fast with magic spraying, but it's not nearly that easy with combat.

Yeah I definitely agree with you here, this is another change/improvement I'd like to see in a future patch. I've seen videos of other players running around blasting everything around them with novas without any real fear of reprisal...

Caal 08-21-2010 04:13 PM

Yet another set of comments

Strange Leveling/Tier Progression: when I first started playing, I did notice a difficulty peak around levels 15-25, which decreases after that, then becoming more difficult again after level 70 or so. Now being a grizzled veteran player, I found that using vendors and gamblers more aggressively early helps get better items more quickly, helping to overcome this early peak.

Cave-Ins: I play mostly hardcore, and sometimes need to play with the sound off, so I got used to watching for those little puffs of smoke that signal a cave-in, and getting away with little or no damage. My level 51 and 33 HC characters are still around because of it.

Suicidal NPC/Escorts: For escort quests, after spotting the NPC, you can clear the path to his destination, then go back and accept the escort. You'll almost never fail an escort quest this way. Rescue quests are different. Sometimes they die before you get there, or are down to a sliver of health and are surrounded by monsters. Not much can be done there, but if you see an NPC has a fighting chance, you can give him food and/or a health pot giving you extra time to clear his monsters away. Not foolproof, but does increase your chance for success.

Money Drops: I sort of like the multiple cash drops. I think dead leprechauns use them as a revenge mechanism, since I was killed once by a monster that trailed behind leprechauns that I didn't see due to the large number of cash piles on the ground.

Mana-Steal Monsters: one of the enjoyable things about this game is the uniqueness of the monsters, and part of the fun is figuring out how to deal with each one. Yes dark elf mages suck if you're a mana user, but not so much if you're not. Being attacked by a pack of amorphs sucks if you're a melee character, and not so much if you're a mana user with AOE.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bak (Post 16262)
At least some of the complaints (cave-ins, monster dps) sounds like you aren't sinking enough points into vitality. When I was first starting out, I tried putting most of my points into strength/dex (to equip better items w/o using potions) or int/spirit (to have unlimited mana). And got hammered. The game has pretty good balance, in that some strategy has to be used for the unglamorous skills like vitality, armor, and resistance.

Cave-ins and monster swarms pissed me off at first :p, but I'm getting better at the old saying: "He who lives and runs away, lives to fight another day."
(Closely followed by the Daffy Duck saying: "I may be a coward, but I'm a greedy coward." :D )

I highly doubt that. The character I'm playing right now is a Vitality/Armor heavy fighter (Abosorbs 100% of damage at level and a 150+ Vitality). And I also pop a vitality potion every chance I get. Its not the damage that bothers me, it's the lack of time to get out of the cave in radius. I think my character is well balanced for a fighter - that's not the issue there.

I have my own thoughts/concerns about how the stats scale up (or don't), but that's a little off the cave-in portion of the topic.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FloodSpectre (Post 16265)
Yeah I definitely agree with you here, this is another change/improvement I'd like to see in a future patch. I've seen videos of other players running around blasting everything around them with novas without any real fear of reprisal...

I agree that a better balancing must be met - but that wasn't my concern. My concern is a lack of that a stat-based passive DPS skill for Wizards, which I think would help bring them more in line with the rest of the classes (that along with some re-balancing)

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caal (Post 16266)
Strange Leveling/Tier Progression: when I first started playing, I did notice a difficulty peak around levels 15-25, which decreases after that, then becoming more difficult again after level 70 or so. Now being a grizzled veteran player, I found that using vendors and gamblers more aggressively early helps get better items more quickly, helping to overcome this early peak.

I don't subscribe to the belief that if you feel underpowered you simply need to hope for better drops/vendors. It's a development issue that apparently others seem to agree with and therefore should be fixed accordingly.

I do agree that the difficulty seems to be evening out a little better as I progress past 35 or so, but that could simply be because I'm finding better drops - which, as I describe above, is not the answer to an issue like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caal (Post 16266)
Money Drops: I sort of like the multiple cash drops. I think dead leprechauns use them as a revenge mechanism, since I was killed once by a monster that trailed behind leprechauns that I didn't see due to the large number of cash piles on the ground.

I disagree and think this is tedious, but I will concede that I never thought of it as a dying-revenge-type ability designed to mask the ground. This, however, only bolsters my belief that it should have a toggle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caal (Post 16266)
Mana-Steal Monsters: one of the enjoyable things about this game is the uniqueness of the monsters, and part of the fun is figuring out how to deal with each one. Yes dark elf mages suck if you're a mana user, but not so much if you're not. Being attacked by a pack of amorphs sucks if you're a melee character, and not so much if you're a mana user with AOE.

I'm playing a fighter right now - but that doesn't mean anything in this context. All players use their mana to fight in some way or another (myself included). I've never seen a player rely exclusively on their regular attack and live. It's the fighters and rangers on my co-op server that seem to be bothered the most by this particular spamming special attack behavior. I think perhaps the issue might stem from that particular special attack being so fast. Perhaps lowering the speed at which their distance 'mana-steal attack' travels to the same as some other (flame/bow) throwers might alleviate this. Comments?

Bak 08-21-2010 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16267)
Its not the damage that bothers me, it's the lack of time to get out of the cave in radius.

Okay. In one of the earlier posts you did mention damage, which is what made me think (incorrectly) that you were under-vitalizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16253)
Also, I've never found a reason why I'd want to destroy a healthstone, lifestone, or such. I understand that having an area-attack harm those things lends a certain degree of caution (which is good), but regular attacks?

I've had a healthstone located at a chokepoint in the corridor. Could not fit around it. Needed to hack it away to get to the half of the dungeon with the stairs down.

LordBlackangel 08-21-2010 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bak (Post 16270)
I've had a healthstone located at a chokepoint in the corridor. Could not fit around it. Needed to hack it away to get to the half of the dungeon with the stairs down.

Wow. ... ... .. Just wow. I'm glad this never happened to me or both my character and I would have died from laughter.

Mounting bad mechanics on top of bad mechanics is not a solution. How about just not having the healthstones located in a chokepoint? Many other ARPG's have force-attack buttons/toggles - why not implement this?

timeh 08-22-2010 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16268)
My concern is a lack of that a stat-based passive DPS skill for Wizards, which I think would help bring them more in line with the rest of the classes (that along with some re-balancing)

as a caster type, you're probably going to max out INT, which gives you crit

there's your stat-based passive DPS skill: higher base crit


i don't mind having to destroy healthstones etc to get past them, i just don't like how they get targeted when you're playing a ranged character when they're closer than the closest monster (using the numbers to attack, mouse to move around)

setting them friendly and adding a force attack button would help, because i also end up zapping the last healthstone i used if it's nearby when i see more monsters (because it's still selected)

Shadow 08-23-2010 12:04 PM

It's not usual that a thread gets this long before I even see it. :)

LordBlackangel: Plate does have more armor than cloth by quite a bit. Swords do more damage than daggers, but the speed differences do end up making them close in dps (daggers do have a slight dps advantage).

The only time money doesn't get picked up automatically is in multiplayer.

Healthstones are destroyable so that they can never block your path. Figuring out that something is a choke-hold is not something that is easily solved.

timeh: I'll look at healthstones getting auto targeted.

Everyone needs to remember that 90% chance to hit are for average monsters that are your level. You will not hit higher level monsters as much as you % says (or monsters with better defenses than normal).

I have modified the item stuff many times to make it better. I'm not completely happy with it yet though.

timeh 08-23-2010 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow (Post 16318)
I'll look at healthstones getting auto targeted.

it's not healthstones... i used that as a blanket term for the regen/buff obelisks

the issue is if i'm running away pressing 1 to fire arrows at monsters chasing me, i don't like it targeting barrels, webs, etc that are closer... if i played the game "properly" i probably wouldn't run into the problem (my archer doesn't have a right click move nor do i left click on mobs to attack with him)

also, a way to avoid accidentally killing healthstones would be handy for when i forget to untarget them (eg force attack)

Bak 08-24-2010 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow (Post 16318)
I have modified the item stuff many times to make it better. I'm not completely happy with it yet though.

I think some people are forgetting that artifacts can be found that are appropriate for low level characters. So it is quite easy to find "common" items from higher level dungeons, that are better than previously found artifacts. No easy way around that.

My request would be to make it easier to complete artifact sets. :D If someone has an artifact equipped, maybe make it slightly more likely to find another artifact from the same set, that is not already equipped? (This would be a change in which type of artifact would be found, not change the likelihood that an artifact of any kind drops.)

Archon 08-30-2010 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel

Strange Leveling/Tier Progression - At first level I can walk through all the levels of a dungeon with no issue. As my level progresses things get inordinately more difficult. At level 20 the first level of a dungeon is exponentially more difficult and the mobs become life threatening. As the monsters get harder, my character should be becoming more powerful. This doesn't currently seem to be the case. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy the challenge and don't want to walk over the enemies, but the progression of difficulty should be uniform throughout the levels. Has anyone else noticed this? Comments?

Around level 1 you also only have a small amount of monsters per floor compared to level 20 where you may have a dozen monsters every dozen or so feet. A couple of my earlier characters were crushed around level 20 with their inferior gear. Not sure if it's just luck or the updates applied but I am usually able to find one really good weapon that takes me through levels 15 - 20 with some of my current characters.

I do agree though the curve especially at normal still needs some work. If someone wants a tough as nails experience that is what champion and legendary are for. While I don't think the standard difficulty is insane under normal circumstances I do think the standard difficulty should have a smoother curve to it. I am also in favor of more toggles that generally make the monsters more difficult for those who are currently happy with the difficulty slide.

I would also recommend everyone to read Jeff Vogel's blog entry entitled "Make Your Game Easy. Then Make It Easier" from November 19, 2009. http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/...it-easier.html

If you don't like clicking forum-links you can find Vogel's blog at Spiderweb's homepage, just google spiderweb software and the blog is located at the bottom center of the homepage under quick links

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel
Cave-In's - I get the feeling that the rumble-to-fall time is meant to give the opportunity for people to possibly run away, but there is never enough time for that to happen. If you can see the imminent cave-in and you're not standing right on the edge, you're going to get slammed. Perhaps we can raise the time between when the rumble begins and the cave-in occurs? The damage is also an issue here. Getting smacked for a truckload of damage you cannot dodge or see coming is not conducive to an enjoyable gaming experience.

I enjoy the extreme damage from cave-ins since it also damages the monsters quite severely when they get caught in the cave-in :D. Although I am in support of making the 'safer cave-ins' mod an official world-gen toggle since there have been a few people who don't enjoy this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel
Mana-Steal Monsters - They seem overpowered; especially Dark-Elves by way of shear numbers. I don't mind fighting a lot of monsters, but fighting a lot of Dark-Elves involves a large expenditure of mana potions for the reward, making fighting them overly tedious. Perhaps make mana-steal a special attack (1 out of 5 attacks)? Opinions?

I agree with you, I feel the disciples/priests are not very fun to fight and are tedious since they all have the mana steal ability. I think a quick fix would be add more variety to their buffs so that every disciple or priest just doesn't have mana steal.

LordBlackangel 08-30-2010 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon (Post 16495)
I do agree though the curve especially at normal still needs some work. If someone wants a tough as nails experience that is what champion and legendary are for. I think normal should have a smoother curve to it. I am also in favor of more toggles that generally make the monsters more difficult for those who are currently happy with the difficulty slide.

I would also recommend everyone to read Jeff Vogel's blog entry entitled "Make Your Game Easy. Then Make It Easier" from November 19, 2009. http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/...it-easier.html

If you don't like clicking forum-links you can find Vogel's blog at Spiderweb's homepage, just google spiderweb software and the blog is located at the bottom center of the homepage under quick links

Thanks for the insightful reply - I really got a lot out of the link to Vogel's blog and I agree with it from the standpoint of a both a gamer and a writer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon (Post 16495)
I enjoy the extreme damage from cave-ins since it also damages the monsters quite severely when they get caught in the cave-in :D. Although I am in support of making the 'safer cave-ins' mod an official world-gen toggle since there have been a few people who don't enjoy this.

I think this is just a matter of Steven including a greater variety of toggles within the configuration files. There have been a lot of ideas tossed around in the forums and, although from a development point of view it's mostly being heard, I think a few additional toggles would go a long way to alleviating some gripes and groans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon (Post 16495)
I agree with you, I feel the disciples/priests are not very fun to fight and are tedious since they all have the mana steal ability. I think a quick fix would be add more variety to their buffs so that every disciple or priest just doesn't have mana steal.

I think that's a great idea and I hope Steven implements either that or perhaps lowers the speed on the mana steal attack to be more in line with with other monster projectiles.

Magitek 08-30-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16498)
I think that's a great idea and I hope Steven implements either that or perhaps lowers the speed on the mana steal attack to be more in line with with other monster projectiles.

I'm at the opposite end of this, I'd rather see monster projectiles bought up to the mana steal's level.
It's so rare to actually have to use a strategy against an opponent in Din's Curse.

LordBlackangel 08-30-2010 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magitek (Post 16528)
I'm at the opposite end of this, I'd rather see monster projectiles bought up to the mana steal's level.
It's so rare to actually have to use a strategy against an opponent in Din's Curse.

I'm inclined to agree with you to some extent based on a couple of caveats. The first question that comes to mind is: How many people do you play with? Or do you play co-op at all?

This comes to mind because dodging an incoming attack in an ARPG such as this is all well and good when it's just you on the screen. When it's you and 3 other guys you can simply forget about it. Character view to fog-of-war ratio simply isn't vast enough and the tile-set simply isn't big enough for that sort of dancing, especially when toons have collision detection as they do in Din's Curse. I'm sure anyone who's playing co-op with others will see the logic in this.

A more elegant answer would be to make all projectiles conform to the same velocity standard with an overall speed-scaling factor that's variable based on a configuration setting. I think that would please both ends of the spectrum. Now I know there are some settings for projectile speed that are changeable via modding, but I don't know if there is anything more global. Perhaps Shadow can chime in here and educate us a little bit on how the game handles monster projectiles in general...

Magitek 08-31-2010 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16532)
I'm inclined to agree with you to some extent based on a couple of caveats. The first question that comes to mind is: How many people do you play with? Or do you play co-op at all?

This comes to mind because dodging an incoming attack in an ARPG such as this is all well and good when it's just you on the screen. When it's you and 3 other guys you can simply forget about it. Character view to fog-of-war ratio simply isn't vast enough and the tile-set simply isn't big enough for that sort of dancing, especially when toons have collision detection as they do in Din's Curse. I'm sure anyone who's playing co-op with others will see the logic in this.

A more elegant answer would be to make all projectiles conform to the same velocity standard with an overall speed-scaling factor that's variable based on a configuration setting. I think that would please both ends of the spectrum. Now I know there are some settings for projectile speed that are changeable via modding, but I don't know if there is anything more global. Perhaps Shadow can chime in here and educate us a little bit on how the game handles monster projectiles in general...

I don't play much single player. I play with one or two usually.
Sometimes there isn't a great deal of a space, but you have potions, food and skills to mitigate in these circumstance, or draw opponents into a different area if you must.
I rarely get hit by projectiles simply by moving around, even in coop. All those years of Diablo 2 finally paid off, I swear :D

Kruztee 08-31-2010 04:16 AM

Interesting thread.

But please, please do not nerf cave-ins any more! :mad:

LordBlackangel 08-31-2010 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magitek (Post 16536)
I don't play much single player. I play with one or two usually.
Sometimes there isn't a great deal of a space, but you have potions, food and skills to mitigate in these circumstance, or draw opponents into a different area if you must.
I rarely get hit by projectiles simply by moving around, even in coop. All those years of Diablo 2 finally paid off, I swear :D

I hear you. But something that needs to be described with the addition of "if you must" is by definition not fun. I could go into more detail, but I think this can be better summed in the link posted earlier by Archon here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruztee (Post 16538)
Interesting thread.

But please, please do not nerf cave-ins any more! :mad:

This thread, and the criticism within, has shown me that many people find the frequency and damage levels just fine, whereas others don't. YMMV. Since there is a mod to disable cave-in's it's unlikely that Shadow will nerf them any more than he already has. However, it's still good for him to hear feedback one way or the other on what people like, don't like, and why.

In terms of cave-in damage I don't have a major concern, but when I'm playing with other players who's health levels aren't as high as mine every cave-in could equate to instant death, which is not fun. Without more information on how the damage level of a cave-in is generated it's hard to speculate further in terms of damage. As far as radius, the same gripes appear to be limited to multiplayer games where one person is already well inside the radius of where the cave-in will drop when another player triggers the panel. The result of this is that the person who triggered it is close to the edge (and can thus escape) whereas the other character is too far inside to escape in time.

Thanks for the interest in the thread and be sure to chime in on the other topics mentioned if you have any input.

Kruztee 08-31-2010 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordBlackangel (Post 16539)
In terms of cave-in damage I don't have a major concern, but when I'm playing with other players who's health levels aren't as high as mine every cave-in could equate to instant death, which is not fun. Without more information on how the damage level of a cave-in is generated it's hard to speculate further in terms of damage. As far as radius, the same gripes appear to be limited to multiplayer games where one person is already well inside the radius of where the cave-in will drop when another player triggers the panel. The result of this is that the person who triggered it is close to the edge (and can thus escape) whereas the other character is too far inside to escape in time

I'm a predominantly single player gamer. Co-op is not particularly fun or stable for me.

Having said that, if I get killed by a cave-in, then 98% of the time it was my fault. Either by not playing cautiously enough or taking a calculated risk and then having it not pay off. Either way, even if you get caught in one, there's very little chance of it killing you now (post-nerf), unless you're playing a very flimsy, cloth clad mage-type (and these guys SHOULD get 1-hit KO'd by cave-ins). This assumes that you're adventuring at your own level. In a dungeon that is significantly higher level than your character, then you have to expect that things aren't always going to be rosy.

Every now and then (this is the 2% of cave-in deaths left over from above) there's just an epic cave-in that flattens just about everything on the level. You get caught in one of those suckers and you're going to die. I always tend to think it's pretty awesome to see one of those. If you're playing hardcore, then hey - what a way to go! If not, then suck it up and go and collect that soulstone. No one ever said that the path to redemption was easy.

Oasisbhrnw 09-05-2010 05:49 PM

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I think the Stairs that lead to the next level of the dungeon as well as the dungeon gates back to town should show up as something other than blue dots after you find them. I dislike it when I need to get out of a dungeon and I know I've been to the gate but I'm not sure which blue dot it is.

Archon 09-05-2010 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oasisbhrnw (Post 16655)
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I think the Stairs that lead to the next level of the dungeon as well as the dungeon gates back to town should show up as something other than blue dots after you find them. I dislike it when I need to get out of a dungeon and I know I've been to the gate but I'm not sure which blue dot it is.

That is a really good idea for a quick find on the world map instead of hovering the mouse over each blue dot.

PixelLord 09-05-2010 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kruztee (Post 16540)
Every now and then (this is the 2% of cave-in deaths left over from above) there's just an epic cave-in that flattens just about everything on the level. You get caught in one of those suckers and you're going to die. I always tend to think it's pretty awesome to see one of those. If you're playing hardcore, then hey - what a way to go! If not, then suck it up and go and collect that soulstone. No one ever said that the path to redemption was easy.

Just hit your health potion hotkey while the rocks a falling on your head. (I have NEVER been able to do this BTW!) :p

Oasisbhrnw 09-11-2010 11:55 AM

I failed a few quests in a town pretty quick so my quest space filled up and stayed that way as i didn't realize I had to manually decline failed quests. Perhaps failed quests should be cleared out of your active quest log automatically and get put in a failed quests tab?

Edit: Obviously it's nothing difficult to do once you get used to it. I just thought for new players it would be more intuitive.

Bak 09-15-2010 12:32 PM

Reputation awards
 
I realize that the items awarded for reaching a new reputation award are largely random, but perhaps that can be tweaked? (Not entirely random, as I haven't gotten mail/plate when my char can only use leather.)

Char got Ciglio's Belt, which I promptly sold :D since it was inferior to the currently used belt. Next reputation level, got another Ciglio Belt. And it was inferior to the previous one that I didn't want. 3rd level, got an orange-buffed Greed Gloves. (Greed is good!) 4th level, got Greed Gloves again, but inferior to the ones being used.

Maybe make it that the same item doesn't get awarded twice? Perhaps a different Ciglio item instead of the Belt, or require that the 2nd awarded Gloves can't be Greed?

Amberjoy 09-15-2010 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bak (Post 16855)
I realize that the items awarded for reaching a new reputation award are largely random, but perhaps that can be tweaked? (Not entirely random, as I haven't gotten mail/plate when my char can only use leather.)

Char got Ciglio's Belt, which I promptly sold :D since it was inferior to the currently used belt. Next reputation level, got another Ciglio Belt. And it was inferior to the previous one that I didn't want. 3rd level, got an orange-buffed Greed Gloves. (Greed is good!) 4th level, got Greed Gloves again, but inferior to the ones being used.

Maybe make it that the same item doesn't get awarded twice? Perhaps a different Ciglio item instead of the Belt, or require that the 2nd awarded Gloves can't be Greed?

Not a bad idea. I've gotten 4 Ciglio (sp?) vests (or was it robes?) I put one in my 'shared' chest and sold the rest as they were all less than what I was wearing. The one in the shared chest I use on new characters I try out. :)

Bak 09-15-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amberjoy (Post 16856)
Not a bad idea. I've gotten 4 Ciglio (sp?) vests (or was it robes?) I put one in my 'shared' chest and sold the rest as they were all less than what I was wearing. The one in the shared chest I use on new characters I try out. :)

Or maybe create a new necklace called "Ciglio's Tie", and have Din give that to you every Christmas instead of the gift you wanted. :D

DeathKnight1728 09-15-2010 05:50 PM

I know that this isnt the right forum, but how is the expansion coming along? I can't wait until it starts getting to the point where there are major updates :D


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