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Bluddy 02-23-2011 01:58 AM

Helping the mage classes
 
This is in response to points that were mentioned in the armor absorption thread by Crisses, and elsewhere as well.

It seems like the mage classes are still weak, even after having monster resistances lowered. It's not a huge surprise: fighting chars have stronger weapons, stronger armor, their attacks go up in with their stats, and they then have their skill points free to complement their fighting as they choose.

Mage characters, in contrast, need to use every skill point to upgrade their powers, just to keep up with the monster HP. They can rarely afford to diversify their skills. And they have no way to defend themselves.

That's not all bad. I think mage characters are supposed to be tougher to play with. In full RPG games, they're support characters, after all. Still, I think they deserve some affirmative action.

Here are my ideas, in order of easiest to least easy to implement:

1. More skill points per level. They deserve them since skill points are the only way they really fight. I suggest, for starters, a 'Gifted' passive skill for each magic tree giving 33% more skill points. A full mage class will therefore gain 2x the normal skill points (from 3 trees * 1/3), while a hybrid mage class (e.g. ice mage/necromancer) will get 166% of the normal skill points etc. Not sure it's enough, but it's a start.

2. Crisses suggested making cloth armor have more enchantments as compensation for its weaker armor. I think this is a good idea.

3. Buff up defense spells. They don't seem substantial enough.

4. Make spells go up with intelligence. This should be done only after option 1 is used since a) it's harder to do and b) option 1 will already affect mages' power quite a bit.

I'd really like to see at least option 1 implemented.

Baki 02-23-2011 02:34 AM

i do not think mages generally need help. all my strongest chars have been mages. Beeing ranged is a huge advantage.

stuns and slows help a mage to defend.

but i would agree that there are only a few efficient ways to play a mage. for Example try this built: Shatter, Cold Mastery, Permaforst. Those are all the skills you will need. Shatter has good single target dps and good aoe. Permaforst to slow nasty monsters. As 2nd Class get a class with +0.8 HP / Vit like Gladiator or Conjurer for Thunderbolt vs bosses (even if it isnt as reliable as it was).

get a staff with crit and casttime and all is fine. get enough int to reach 100% crit and put the rest of your points into vit.

Crisses 02-23-2011 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baki (Post 22702)
i do not think mages generally need help. all my strongest chars have been mages. Beeing ranged is a huge advantage.

stuns and slows help a mage to defend.

but i would agree that there are only a few efficient ways to play a mage. for Example try this built: Shatter, Cold Mastery, Permaforst. Those are all the skills you will need. Shatter has good single target dps and good aoe. Permaforst to slow nasty monsters. As 2nd Class get a class with +0.8 HP / Vit like Gladiator or Conjurer for Thunderbolt vs bosses (even if it isnt as reliable as it was).

get a staff with crit and casttime and all is fine. get enough int to reach 100% crit and put the rest of your points into vit.


Right there you made our point though. No diversity in that build. Why would this ice Mage need the fire Mage and magician skill trees? The wizard class simply doesn't work! Is there sufficient reason to toss points into Teleport with that build to justify the whole magician tree? So your ice Mage build could as easily hybrid with another tree for armor and/or weapon bonuses because you sure aren't going to focus enough points in teleport to bring the cool down to the point that it helps your character as a defense skill.

To have an effective Mage class you MUST pour all your points into a very narrow niche of skills, effectively making 2 skill trees nearly worthless when skill tree choices are so important (due to cumulative stat bonuses and the importance of which items one can arm in the game).

Even if the build you describe is great there should be more than one working build from 3 skill trees.

Baki 02-23-2011 07:56 AM

But that is the same for nearly every efficient built. You focus on the few good things the classes have to offer and ignore the rest.

take a look at the warrior class: it offers so many active attack skills, but only 1 is without doubt the best: cleave. put a few points in that, 1 point in berserk and exploit the animation of cleave.

let me explain this exploit further, hopefully it will get fixed some day...

you are wielding a weapon with 1 second attack speed and 100 damage per swing, no other dmg modifiers from str or skills. -> 100 dps
if you use cleave you will do 150 dmg because cleave has a time value of 1.5 seconds.
but the dmg is alrdy done after ~0.5 seconds. after the dmg is done you quickly do a berserk and the cleave animation will be aborted but the dmg is already done. immediatly cast cleave again -> repeat (you can use programs like autohotkey which help with the timing to optimize it)

that way you can do 150% dps in 0.5 seconds to 2 targets with the best melee range possible. that means cleave with 0% damage bonus is as good vs a single target as a normal attack with 300% dps bonus.

Bluddy 02-23-2011 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baki (Post 22725)
But that is the same for nearly every efficient built. You focus on the few good things the classes have to offer and ignore the rest.

take a look at the warrior class: it offers so many active attack skills, but only 1 is without doubt the best: cleave. put a few points in that, 1 point in berserk and exploit the animation of cleave.

What you're pointing out is an imbalance in 1 skill, that probably needs to be nerfed/fixed. There shouldn't be one way to a class, and the warrior class in particular offers many different paths. That's the point of having multiple skills.

Valgor 02-23-2011 08:51 AM

I'm all for Intelligence increasing the damage of magic skills; similar to how Strength affects a melee character's base damage.

Baki 02-23-2011 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluddy (Post 22726)
What you're pointing out is an imbalance in 1 skill, that probably needs to be nerfed/fixed. There shouldn't be one way to a class, and the warrior class in particular offers many different paths. That's the point of having multiple skills.

every class offers different paths. i am only saying that some paths are better than others and some classes are better than others. having so many possible classes and skills in dins curse comes at a price: horible balancing. dins curse has so many inferior / superior skills that if your target is effiency you will always bring it down to a few skills. sad but true.

Bluddy 02-23-2011 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baki (Post 22731)
every class offers different paths. i am only saying that some paths are better than others and some classes are better than others. having so many possible classes and skills in dins curse comes at a price: horible balancing. dins curse has so many inferior / superior skills that if your target is effiency you will always bring it down to a few skills. sad but true.

Fair enough. We can try to get it to be as balanced as possible, though. At least that's what we're trying to do. Since you clearly know many of the best/worst paths, you can help out too.


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