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  #31  
Old 10-02-2012, 02:38 PM
Draciel Draciel is offline
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Well, Id like -

- remove command entirely
- you can build new ships from races, each ship can have level req...
- maybe there can be some differences between ships -> structure, weight, speed without components...


And something else... Why is ship order like light escort -> light corvette ...... light dreagnaut (or something) and then again from beginning with medium...

its quite funny upgrade from big and heavy battleship into lightweight medium escort

- maybe light escort -> medium escort -> heavy escort -> light corvette .... will be better
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Valgor Valgor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draciel View Post
And something else... Why is ship order like light escort -> light corvette ...... light dreagnaut (or something) and then again from beginning with medium...

its quite funny upgrade from big and heavy battleship into lightweight medium escort

- maybe light escort -> medium escort -> heavy escort -> light corvette .... will be better
In all honesty, I'd like to see the light/medium/heavy differentiation be done with. Fewer classes of ships means fewer Command levels and thus, every ship can be a substantial improvement
over the preceding one, with new slots, heavier hull and better stats; not to mention the upgrade progression could be spaced out a whole lot better.
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2012, 04:21 PM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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The only problem with these suggestions is that we're in beta, and a complete overhaul would probably throw things back into near-alpha & wreck everything for the betatesters.

I'm suggesting to even out the balance in such a way that folks who DON'T put points into Command aren't penalized as much at the end-game, that there's substantial endgame-aiding differences between the lower-Command ships and the higher-Command ships.

The game already presumes that smaller ships weigh less. Well, they're also less to shield, less to power, less to re-armor, etc. They should be more nimble, harder to hit, turn better, be easier to cloak, etc. It's like a Ti Fighter ...versus the Millennium Falcon vs the Death Star itself... Or if you're a Trekkie, there are smaller cloak-able Romulan vessels vs. the Enterprise.

I'm not saying the game's premise needs to be totally reworked from the bottom up, but that with a few tweaks, it could open up a whole lot of new builds as viable.
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  #34  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:20 PM
PrimeIntellect PrimeIntellect is offline
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Originally Posted by Crisses View Post
The only problem with these suggestions is that we're in beta, and a complete overhaul would probably throw things back into near-alpha & wreck everything for the betatesters.
It's better for that to happen than for the game to end up having only one way to properly play (460 points needed to reach maximum command means only 8 levels of points can go in other things).

Unless there's an overhaul, the only thing that I see happening is command builds are nerfed into the ground and become even more unfun than they are currently. Then we'll all have 3-5 slots for each weight class, which then stifles any creativity in builds.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:56 AM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeIntellect View Post
Unless there's an overhaul, the only thing that I see happening is command builds are nerfed into the ground and become even more unfun than they are currently. Then we'll all have 3-5 slots for each weight class, which then stifles any creativity in builds.
Well, you don't have to nerf command builds to benefit lower-command builds.

I only see one stat that may really suffer a great deal from a low-command build -- structure*. However, having not played endgame, I have no idea how much that would matter -- or whether upgrading ships would fall behind the curve versus spending occasional crew points directly to the Structure stat to increase the structure of the ship.

If items go up in stats high enough for the ~ 495 crew points to be spent on the other stats rather than command, then there would be individual items that could benefit the low-command builds. Better items on a single-item basis such as great shields, better armor, stronger weapons, etc.

If the game is altered to hand out items that are currently based around the character's level to hand them out based on the required stats instead, that would benefit both build styles. Then if a character invests more heavily in one stat than the others, the game would compensate for it. You wouldn't have to go into areas several levels above or below your current level in order to find new items you can actually use.

*...from there it depends on the character's race, since stats get bonuses based on Command... However, once it costs 10+pts to raise Command, you could easily just pay crew points for those stat bonuses.

Another thing I was wondering: what if you got +5 crew pts per level, and a 1:1 ratio for Command, but for the other stats you got +2 for every 1 crew point spent? Just something I was thinking about to make it a little more "worthwhile" to spend points on something other than command. Is there a max for stats? If they maxed out at say 300, this would work fine. I don't have a good way to know whether that would upset the game balance or not.
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  #36  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Chumpy Chumpy is offline
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Structure is the least useful stat in the game.

There's a stat that increases survivability (and... escape pod health?), and another stat that increases survivability, power load, energy, and energy regen. I ranked them a while back.

Also Command builds have higher stats in general; they're just more well-rounded. (Although the race stat usually goes through the roof.)
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2012, 01:56 PM
LostSoul LostSoul is offline
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The problem is that smaller ships aren't really remotely capable compared to larger ships. Yes, larger ships have the issue of needing more crew, but all the additional slots that they get more than make up for it. Not only do the larger ships have more weapons, they have more power, more armor, more shields, and more subsystems to support them and the rest of the ship. They simply have *more* all around.

Smaller ships are simply not effective in comparison. They may or may not be faster, but they're most *definitely* not more durable, and they all but certainly don't dish out more damage. And their tool-options are even more limited, because those precious few small and medium component slots simply can't be used for any other purpose (to say nothing of heavy ones). There aren't a lot of good solutions to this either, without at least a somewhat substantial overhaul of *something* behind the scenes.

_edit_

It would be simpler just to embrace that all ships are going to reach max-size by level 100, and that devoting points into command simply allows earlier access to those larger ships. For example, just re-tool Command to cap at 100 and have each level automatically add 1 point to command.

Last edited by LostSoul : 10-03-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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  #38  
Old 10-03-2012, 02:43 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Throwing out a suggestion -- feel free to modify it:

What if the number of slots didn't depend just on hull?

Large ships would be able to equip many large and medium items (as they can now). But the idea here would be that small items are not a function of space. Instead, they're a function of having a crew that is sufficiently experienced at handling the items. What I envision right now is that you don't have light slots. Instead, you have crew quarters. The higher the level of your crew, the more light slots open up (visually, think of each crew member causing slots to appear beneath him/her). A small ship would be able to train crew to high levels, and this expert crew would be able to take care of many small items. A large ship would have very limited crew -- crew would be needed just to supply the stats for all the bigger items, and therefore a large ship would have very few light items.
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:48 PM
Valgor Valgor is offline
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I'm in full support of Bluddy's idea.
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  #40  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:52 PM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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So everyone is saying that bigger is better. Well, I disagree, even if it's true (currently) in DO. I'm a woman, not a size queen. I drive a Hyundai Elantra, not a 4x4. I have nothing to prove where size matters. I don't need a game to prove how big I am.

If you have a throwing knife, a shuriken, a pistol, a sling and a shotgun & unlimited ammo, and I have a bazooka and an unlimited supply of missiles, who does more damage? You definitely have more weapons... I'll give you that.

With less crew required, a small ship can arm some pretty awesome light items. But on a large ship you have to arm crew. The light ship has that option, but won't require it.

Larger ships "have more power" because they REQUIRE more power.

Eventually having more slots & lower base stats means you need more slots -- so you can arm a 2nd power plant, 2 thrusters, multiple shields, stat-raising items, as many crew as you can cram on-board, etc. I'm saying a slender build, eliminate redundancy, and run lean (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing).

I'm suggesting is that a smaller ship might require less armor, less shields -- which is up to the developer -- because there's less mass/squarefootage/volume to protect. That's optional. If that is granted, then the viability of smaller ships goes way up.


Put another way: it's like pitting a martial arts grandmaster against a decorated war vet. The soldier has an assault rifle, grenades, machete--and all kinds of tools of his trade. The martial arts master only has his hands. I still don't want to bet on who would win. Just because the big boy has all the toys doesn't ALWAYS make him the best soldier. And that's the way it is -- pure discipline/skill/knowledge/training vs. tech toys. It's not WRONG. It's just a different philosophy.

Regardless of whether the game shifts to make room for this to be even more viable, I'm trying it out. Not a halfway between, but a "keep it slim" -- because this is a feature-creep issue. The more slots you get, the more you need. I'm pretty convinced of it. And the crew point price goes up quickly. Eventually I can get +20 stat points instead of raising Command a potentially useless level. I see a big potential ROI for it. I'm testing it out, with or without y'all. It does mean having to make some pretty tough decisions for every slot, but I like puzzles. It doesn't have that capitalism trope of "The one who dies with the most toys, wins!" It does take discipline to keep from splurging all those crew points on slots. Just because it's tougher to do doesn't mean there's no payoff.
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