Skill balancing

[Nim]

Guys, you know that you can use strength/dexterity potions to equip those high requirement weapons ? They won't unequip when the potion runs out.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

- I'm ok with the mana regen level, unless they get dramatically worse later in the game. Mana runs out if you overuse it, as it should.

You should really play more before making statements like that. Mana regen on single items can go over 20, IIRC Nobear found a 27 manareg item ? Mana should only run out in the early game or if you're up against mana burners.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by Nim

You should really play more before making statements like that. Mana regen on single items can go over 20, IIRC Nobear found a 27 manareg item ? Mana should only run out in the early game or if you're up against mana burners.

OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

At least in a mid-level game, mana runs out plenty without any nerfing. Depends on the size of the hordes you're going after mostly, but it can also take many spells/skill uses to knock down the baddies. I'm not playing a pure spell-casting class, whom I would assume have it better because they'd be pumping more points into Int & Spirit & have their tree bonuses for regen -- regardless regen is for between battles, having a huge pool of mana from which to draw doesn't mean that you won't empty it when you walk into a big room or take on bigger critters.

I have heard the complaint that a warrior with a big sword has it much easier towards DC endgame than a spell-class. The h2h classes can spread their skill points around (pouring just a few levels into the skills doubles or triples your base weapon damage -- so just pick up a high DPS weapon and wade through a horde like butter, especially with whirlwind or similar), the mage classes need to pour nearly all their points into a much more narrow range of skills to survive -- i.e. the linear progression of the spells stacking can't keep up with moderate modifiers on big-weapon damages. Perhaps there needs to be staff/dagger/mace/bow(?) modifiers on skills i.e. +200% extra fire damage, +300% extra magic damage, +400% healing -- specifically to make these types of weapons more "yummy" to the spellcasting classes AND to make lugging them around at all useful (similar to the +skill items in Diablo -- sorry, I said the D word) since you're probably not using them in combat. i.e. the balance would be to make an external item helpful to the base skills of the classes. "Staff of the Ice Mage" or something. If the game already has this in it, I apologize -- having only made it to around lvl 43, I haven't seen anything like it. So either these items drop very rarely in a lvl 50 game (I've been playing 50 elite & champion) or they just aren't there.

If possible, find a way to add in Poison Mastery on the Assassin or Shaman tree, I think.

[Crisses]

Another thought: Warlock's "Demon Mastery" could also apply to Demonologist "Demonic Control" & "Possession" -- making for an interesting hybrid combo. Increase the % damage of a Possessed demonologist, and the % damage of the controlled demon.

On the mastery skills -- I didn't have DC open to look at the skill tree at the time. The Mastery skills seem seriously nerfed. I was generous when I said +25%.

[m0stly_harmless]

Just you you guys know, just because I have a low post count, doesn't mean I know nothing of the Dungeon Crawler genre. I've been playing these games since back in the haydays of the 386 computers... My posts reflect some of that experience. At the end of the day, I want what we all want - a really cool game!

Originally Posted by Bluddy

- I'm ok with the mana regen level, unless they get dramatically worse later in the game. Mana runs out if you overuse it, as it should. Use a potion to get more of it. If you want regen to be faster, put points into it or get items that boost it. Many games don't even give you mana regen at all.

This one comment gives me a pretty good idea that you haven't tinkered with spellcasters in this game. The mana burn does get worse as the level of monsters rises (as someone pointed out already). The cost of the spellcasting rises, mana burn from monsters rise, mana regen seriously lags behind. Ultimately rendering your caster pretty useless very quickly in the heat of a battle. Base mana regen needs to be addressed, IMO.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

- The skill trees are split up so that the basic classes have their popular skills spread out around their 3 trees (or at least that's the way it should be). While the trees were given names like assassin, thief, gladiator etc. they're really just a mix of skills. They don't need to overlap (for example the thief skill gets caltrops and lock pick, but not stealth). When you create a hybrid, you get a portion of the base class. It's up to you to find the mix that works for you. I think we want each skill tree to offer something good and interesting, as well as a variety of useful skills, not to make each tree live up to the name it was given, by giving it every skill it sounds like it should have. That applies to active skills like stealth (which the 'Thief' tree doesn't have) and it applies to armor/weapon skills too.

You're forgetting that I made a note at the beginning of my post saying that the comments were based on a PURE character of said class.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

- As another example, I don't think the druid needs to have the bow skill just because it's under ranger. If you take the ranger class, you'll get the druid skills. If you just pick the druid tree for your hybrid, you'll get the set of skills that a 'druid' encompasses, which even from the perspective of the proverbial druid doesn't necessitate bows.

Perhaps in your game. I feel the Druid needs to bring something extra to the table to make him worthwhile to play as his current skill sets are lackluster, IMO.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

As a final comment, I just want to remind everyone that the expansion is very close to release (as in a week or less). Dramatic rebalancing of basic game dynamics won't lead to balance but only to chaos.

All the more reason for polishing up the characters a little better. A better character template will only attract more players. Besides, if you haven't noticed, all the current "rebalancing" of skills, food and economics HAS already created your "chaos". Why do you think these threads came to light?!

The great thing about this game is the DEV is actually listening to his players and some of the suggestions we make. We're all in this together to make this the best game it can possibly be.

Originally Posted by Nim

Guys, you know that you can use strength/dexterity potions to equip those high requirement weapons ? They won't unequip when the potion runs out.

Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

Another statement that makes me believe that you don't use casters. It strenghtens my earlier comment. Mana costs seem fine, Mana regen needs to be tweaked.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by m0stly_harmless

This one comment gives me a pretty good idea that you haven't tinkered with spellcasters in this game. The mana burn does get worse as the level of monsters rises (as someone pointed out already). The cost of the spellcasting rises, mana burn from monsters rise, mana regen seriously lags behind. Ultimately rendering your caster pretty useless very quickly in the heat of a battle. Base mana regen needs to be addressed, IMO.

I've tinkered, but not that much. I think what we can see though is that different users are having different experiences in the later levels from the other feedbacks that people reported. All I want is for Shadow to see the variety of responses. I admitted from the beginning my experience is limited.

You're forgetting that I made a note at the beginning of my post saying that the comments were based on a PURE character of said class.

Sorry. Large post and I totally missed that.

Perhaps in your game. I feel the Druid needs to bring something extra to the table to make him worthwhile to play as his current skill sets are lackluster, IMO.

I agree and you'll note I posted about that too. The druid's boring.

All the more reason for polishing up the characters a little better. A better character template will only attract more players. Besides, if you haven't noticed, all the current "rebalancing" of skills, food and economics HAS already created your "chaos". Why do you think these threads came to light?!

I think a lot of systems have been tweaked already. For example the town events system seems quite enjoyable right now. What I meant to say is that, in order to tweak a system, you need to control some variables. If everything is open to changes, getting a balance will be very difficult. Also, though many people are suggesting many changes, in reality fewer need to be made because one variable affects others.

The great thing about this game is the DEV is actually listening to his players and some of the suggestions we make. We're all in this together to make this the best game it can possibly be.

Agree completely.

Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

The question is, is finding a dagger with super high requirements a systematic problem, or did the game just randomly give you a weapon that you can use later on, or hand to another character via the stash, which is OK? I've encountered some high requirement items that I could grow into, and some that were just 'accidental' drops or drops for much later. I either put them in my stash for later or in the shared stash.

Another statement that makes me believe that you don't use casters. It strenghtens my earlier comment. Mana costs seem fine, Mana regen needs to be tweaked.

Maybe. I can't really tell. Shadow made fairly big changes to creatures' magic resistance. Following those changes, I asked folks here if the problem for magic users had been resolved in later levels in another thread, since this was one of the major problems of the game after crazy NPCs. I didn't get too much feedback, but the feedback that I did get was positive. It's possible that the long-time users of the game missed that thread. If this is the case though and magic users are STILL at a big disadvantage later on, then I agree that needs to be taken care of, whichever way Shadow chooses to do so.

Regardless, we all appreciate your and everyone else's input, because as you say, we all want the game to be as good as it can be.

[m0stly_harmless]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

I've tinkered, but not that much. I think what we can see though is that different users are having different experiences in the later levels from the other feedbacks that people reported. All I want is for Shadow to see the variety of responses. I admitted from the beginning my experience is limited.

I'm cool with that. I'm sure Shadow sees all the responses. I'm sure he appreciates it when someone who's abused () his game as much as my brother and I have chimes in on something.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Sorry. Large post and I totally missed that.

Forgiven. We'll spare you the 10 lashes this time.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

I agree and you'll note I posted about that too. The druid's boring.

I'm hoping that some of the suggestions that have come up in regards to some of these "boring" variants can be made before the final proof of the beta is released. It'll bring so much more to the gameplay. (and give me *cough* us a crapload of new character variants to mess with seeing as we'll actually want to use them!! )

Originally Posted by Bluddy

I think a lot of systems have been tweaked already. For example the town events system seems quite enjoyable right now. What I meant to say is that, in order to tweak a system, you need to control some variables. If everything is open to changes, getting a balance will be very difficult. Also, though many people are suggesting many changes, in reality fewer need to be made because one variable affects others.

... and that's why I think the bag drops and special weapons drops have broken. Something affected something else and since installing DW, I've YET to see a set item drop - and any real elite or artifact type goodies.

Before the DW addon, I was rocking it with great armour and weapons! Now, not so much.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Agree completely.

Perfect.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

The question is, is finding a dagger with super high requirements a systematic problem, or did the game just randomly give you a weapon that you can use later on, or hand to another character via the stash, which is OK? I've encountered some high requirement items that I could grow into, and some that were just 'accidental' drops or drops for much later. I either put them in my stash for later or in the shared stash.

Same as mentioned above. Since DW, special types of goodies were abundant, now, not so much. Even before the DW addon though, (good) maces, daggers and bows were so horribly hard to come by that it made using those characters pointless up until you found one. THEN, you had to deal with absurdly high dex & strength requirements comapred to the level of character you had. Factor in some DPS that didn't jive with the level requirements and I'd just end up selling the thing and sticking with a sword or axe. Kinda sucked the fun out of some characters for me (and I'm sure I'm not alone).

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Maybe. I can't really tell. Shadow made fairly big changes to creatures' magic resistance. Following those changes, I asked folks here if the problem for magic users had been resolved in later levels in another thread, since this was one of the major problems of the game after crazy NPCs. I didn't get too much feedback, but the feedback that I did get was positive. It's possible that the long-time users of the game missed that thread. If this is the case though and magic users are STILL at a big disadvantage later on, then I agree that needs to be taken care of, whichever way Shadow chooses to do so.

I musta missed that thread... But yes, magic users are still at a disadvantage when you combine a horde of monsters, high cost spells, maybe some mana-burning enemies and very little mana regeneration abilities (whether skill generated or weapon/armour generated).

That's why making a hybrid magic user/magic user is complete sillyness at the moment. They can't defend themselves worth beans and burn through mana like a fat kid on smarties.

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Regardless, we all appreciate your and everyone else's input, because as you say, we all want the game to be as good as it can be.

You're quite welcome and yes we do. It's nice to be a part of a great game!

[Max_Powers]

Originally Posted by m0stly_harmless

Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

This is something that I wish would get fixed. From playing other games in which you become encumbered this situation just makes no sense. I also do not use it for the same reason.

[alstein]

I still think the dex requirements for daggers is too high.

After playing around a bit more with the current patch.

I think things are improved- though shamans do definitely need something.

High prayer- perhaps make it percentage based, with levels reducing the recharge time, instead of a flat +hp/+mana?

I think they still are in need of another skill, though part of me thinks a good idea for a 2nd expansion to Din's would be adding skills to classes.

Maybe buff those resistance skills to also give a buff effect that give elemental damage to your weapon, improvable by level as well. Magitek's mod gives the healer a magic damage version of this. This is probably too much for a 2pt skill, maybe raise it to 3 or 4pts? Skills should stay linked though.

for an additional skill- maybe give them another blessing that's mage-friendly, maybe have it reduce casting time.

One thing that might help in figuring out what needs buffing is to see which classes people feel are strongest and weakest?

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Max_Powers

This is something that I wish would get fixed. From playing other games in which you become encumbered this situation just makes no sense. I also do not use it for the same reason.

I don't use it either. It's nice (convenient but cheat-ish) when I've UNequipped something with a +STR/+DEX and it doesn't disable something I already have equipped. But I don't use pots to arm things with ridiculously higher requirements. Actually, I don't really use stat/resist pots at all. And I don't think the game mechanics should REQUIRE that you do so. There's already so many health/mana potions + food combinations that I find 1/3rd my inventory taken up with that nonsense. I've taken up a hand-me-down food pantry in my shared stash because it's not worth turning in old food/drinks/pots at the merchants. Adding in "quality" versions of food doubled the ridiculousness of this.