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  #1  
Old 06-20-2012, 04:14 PM
meriton meriton is offline
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Default Wanted: a better victory condition

I am not impressed with the condition for winning a sector (that all remaining factions, and the player, need be allied with each other).

My issue is that the victory condition is largely outside the players control. It is determined by the relationship between factions (which the player can not noticeably affect, as any attempts are dwarfed by other interactions among the races), and the relationship between factions and the player (where - at least outside times of war - the relationship slides back to normal just as fast as the player can boost it by solving the few quests the race offers).

In particular, it may happen that a player can kill everything in the sector, but is unable to win the sector, because killing stuff is not in demand.

Contrast this to Din's Curse, where I can kill the boss monsters once I am strong enough, thereby slowing down generation of quests to a point where mopping up won't take long, or to Depths or Peril, where I can prove my might by raiding and defeating the enemy covenants.

Possible solutions:

1. Add a way to convince a race it is in their best interest to submit to the Drox (for instance by theatening them, and following through by destroying something they value)
2. Change the victory conditition, for instance: "Factions allied with the Drox control 2/3 of the planets" (so some isolated one-planet faction does not prevent victory)
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  #2  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:14 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Agreed. I think both victory and losing conditions are weak.

One idea for victory conditions is to have a random victory condition per sector. Examples could be
- Make X money from quests.
- Destroy the X race (any way you want)
- Defend race X until 60% of the sector has been colonized
- Make sure race X is the leading power.

The 4x in Drox is extremely dynamic, which is why it's hard to find static victory conditions. Doing it this way makes it another random element.

For multiplayer, you could have different players receive the same, different or even clashing victory conditions, making it a very unique experience.

For losing conditions, you could either have your random victory condition become impossible to accomplish, or your base ship (yes, there should be a movable base ship) destroyed.
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  #3  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:25 PM
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fluffybot fluffybot is offline
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For a game about being (essentially) a mercenary for hire that's bent on furthering his organization's interests by manipulating the powers that be in a completely alien galaxy, the win condition seems about right to me. The only problem I see is the frequent problem of games dragging on and on when they don't need to; I'd like to see your relations improve with a faction quicker when they're the only surviving faction or when they're at war with everyone else. This would bring a bit more meaning to your assistance and allow you to pull some pretty impressive "comeback victories." Personally, I'd go for the underdog 90% of the time since they're the ones that would logically form a stronger bond with folks that swoop in to lend a hand.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:03 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffybot View Post
For a game about being (essentially) a mercenary for hire that's bent on furthering his organization's interests by manipulating the powers that be in a completely alien galaxy, the win condition seems about right to me. The only problem I see is the frequent problem of games dragging on and on when they don't need to; I'd like to see your relations improve with a faction quicker when they're the only surviving faction or when they're at war with everyone else. This would bring a bit more meaning to your assistance and allow you to pull some pretty impressive "comeback victories." Personally, I'd go for the underdog 90% of the time since they're the ones that would logically form a stronger bond with folks that swoop in to lend a hand.
I'm not sure why you say the victory conditions seem right. If I'm a mercenary, why do I care about everybody being allied with me? I get my money and move on to the next sector. I don't care if races are allied with me or not -- I just want to have clients. One client is as good as another, and one lucrative client is just as good as many clients.
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  #5  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:39 PM
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fluffybot fluffybot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
I'm not sure why you say the victory conditions seem right. If I'm a mercenary, why do I care about everybody being allied with me? I get my money and move on to the next sector. I don't care if races are allied with me or not -- I just want to have clients. One client is as good as another, and one lucrative client is just as good as many clients.
I mean the other races see you as a mercenary and, in all honesty, you are taking on whatever jobs you wish as a merc would. However, you are here with a greater purpose (served to you by the Drox) and, since you are acting in the Drox's best interests, wiping the galaxy clean of any unfavorable elements is all part of the plan. Either you're in bed with the Drox or you're toast: that's the bottom line.

Viewed that way, the win condition makes perfect sense: to shape the galaxy to best serve the Drox.

Last edited by fluffybot : 06-20-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:09 AM
pnakotus pnakotus is offline
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If you're a mercenary making universal peace is basically putting yourself out of business. It might make sense fluffwise (I have no idea) but it makes the game long and makes the most effective methods to victory 'grind for faction' and 'buy treaties', rather than I dunno 'have sweet space battles' or 'trick the world and reap the profits'.

Even having the Drox actually reward you and have some kind of career development would improve the game.
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2012, 07:19 PM
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Castruccio Castruccio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
Agreed. I think both victory and losing conditions are weak.

One idea for victory conditions is to have a random victory condition per sector. Examples could be
- Make X money from quests.
- Destroy the X race (any way you want)
- Defend race X until 60% of the sector has been colonized
- Make sure race X is the leading power.
I think these are good ideas as I am also finding the victory conditions a bit stale. Perhaps we could have a check box on the sector creation screen to enable random victory conditions (like the ones mentioned above) but the default could still be allying all of the races?
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2012, 07:53 PM
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fluffybot fluffybot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnakotus View Post
If you're a mercenary making universal peace is basically putting yourself out of business. It might make sense fluffwise (I have no idea) but it makes the game long and makes the most effective methods to victory 'grind for faction' and 'buy treaties', rather than I dunno 'have sweet space battles' or 'trick the world and reap the profits'.

Even having the Drox actually reward you and have some kind of career development would improve the game.
Agreed on the last part. Regardless of how shallow the "title" may be, I still appreciated Din accepting my accomplishments (regardless of how many towns I abandoned during my first character, the big stupidhead).

Also, I finally watched the intro movie so I guess my thoughts on what the game is all about went right out the window. Whoops. My theory no longer holds any water, does it? It sounded so damn good, too! I always thought of the Drox as some kind of superpower that got royally screwed somehow and was trying to rebuild their might from the shadows, turning them into the equivalent of a space illuminati that rolled the dice wrong or something. I still kinda prefer my made-up scenario, so I think I'll stick with it.
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:54 PM
Permagrin Permagrin is offline
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Following the backstory (the intro cinematic) I think the standard victory condition should be based on the Drox (us) and our chosen allies remaining. The love-in's wouldn't work with this so there would have to be more than 1 separate alliance (unless the races involved were all interested in self-preservation foremost).

Shows of strength and temporary allegiances by the player would dictate how the races would initiate contact with the player. Once the player allies with an alliance the other alliance(s) would most likely go full-scale war and probably join together to eliminate the Drox-alliance threat. Therefore the player would have to scout and ensure he/she picked his time to move properly.

Thoughts on this anyone?
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  #10  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:51 AM
Waffles Waffles is offline
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The easy fix is to change the victory condition from "operative and all remaining races allied with each other" to "all remaining races allied with each other, operative allied with at least one race".

Which I think accomplishes the same thing, minus the drawn out endgames that tend to happen around alliances.
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