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  #11  
Old 06-27-2012, 05:10 PM
Chumpy Chumpy is offline
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I think a reuse time of 30 seconds would be fine once the energy economy gets straightened out. Like, it's not necessarily a problem that you can always use an item that gives you a penalty when you use it. It is a problem that you can accidentally hit the hotkey and waste energy on an effect that's already on.

Apart from fun factor, a reuse time measured in minutes basically means "equip something else while you wait".
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  #12  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:03 PM
LostSoul LostSoul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
Looking more closely, there's something definitely wrong with that item. Its effect is for 30 seconds, but it has a reuse time of 10 seconds! That means that you can reuse it before the effect is even done! And the cost of 30 energy is nothing compared to what it produces. This is supposed to be an emergency item, which means the reuse time should probably be 2-5 minutes or so.
Yeah I was going to say something about it. Yeah okay -20% shield regen and ship speed but...shields hardly regen anyways and ship speed in combat isn't that big of a deal. You can't outrun missiles, and most enemy ships all come with 200 speed so you can't outrun them either.

I'll have to keep my eyes out for those puppies (pending an inevitable change I'm sure). Most chargers I come across are in the 5-8 E/S range but that's a constant recharge rate, not a use-effect.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:05 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumpy View Post
I think a reuse time of 30 seconds would be fine once the energy economy gets straightened out. Like, it's not necessarily a problem that you can always use an item that gives you a penalty when you use it. It is a problem that you can accidentally hit the hotkey and waste energy on an effect that's already on.

Apart from fun factor, a reuse time measured in minutes basically means "equip something else while you wait".
You're right. 2-5 minutes is too long. I'd probably say a 20 second boost with a 50 second wait (including the effect) is a better mix. I don't think it's an emergency item if you can use it all the time.

Oh I see what you mean regarding the debuffs. At the moment, shields recharge so slowly that the 20% reduction won't be felt, and I'm not sure 1/5 less movement is so bad either. Including these factors, maybe there should be a 20 second wait between uses (ie 50 seconds altogether) -- it's still an awfully useful item for its use case.
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:12 PM
Chumpy Chumpy is offline
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Also the Engineering requirement seems super low (for EEs in general), but I guess that would be balanced out if the item was weakened some other way.
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  #15  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:47 PM
Virosa Virosa is offline
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I'm lvl 23 and i havent found a energy over X sec component, only 1 min reuse that basicly fill you energy.

Energy use aint much of an issue to me, i just use consumable to regen shield and energy every 10-15 sec in combat, i just have so much money, the price of consumables and components is trivial to me ... and that is without any money received from races which used to ( i don't know if it still do ) get ridiculous.

(In the last 10 or so sector i've played, every other races died before i could get a single ally)

Back to the main topic:

I think Waffles's assessment is good. I am not sure if the suggestion here is properly balanced with the new % bonus to racial stats, but its definitive that the command stat need rework.

Also, an other possibility would be to dump the command stats and have you buy your new ship with a level req. I think that would work if the credits you get playing the game get tighter and race gift get to a point where its trivial enough to not be relied upon to accumulate credits.
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  #16  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:26 AM
Waffles Waffles is offline
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Quote:
More importantly, putting points in Command is when a structural level is coming up feels flat out unrewarding.
This is my biggest point, by far. Not only is it unrewarding, you're paying for a downgrade so that you can get an upgrade later. It is awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowy Figure View Post
For example, a few people have complained about the lack of energy regen from Engineering but I'm getting 26 energy per second from a single slot
That item's timing is definitely a bug. I'm 80% certain that the duration and reuse time are supposed to be swapped, and the other 20% is that the duration is correct and reuse time is supposed to be vastly higher. I'm a little appalled that nobody reported that as a bug.

Lost Soul: I disagree with that approach, especially with an accelerating curve that reaches 100%. It would encourage an extremely weak early-mid character who would in the last little bit become explosively overpowered, and would be decisively not fun (Like never spending your first 23 skill points in diablo 2, but more like if you had to save your first 70). The situation would be "you can barely do anything, barely do anything, barely do anything, equip anything you want in tons of slots", for a really terrible power curve.. Also, the bonuses from stats are not relevant enough when compared to having tons of slots, except for tactical, and with 9 light slots and 9 heavy slots you could have enough crew dedicated to it that while you wouldn't do as much damage from individual weapons as a tactics expert, you would have more of them, and annihilate everything. I think that even with a different formula it would be a little shaky, though something like "requirements drop as if stats went up 1% per command" would be closer.

Quote:
I don't know that it actually works out that way. You can put items and crew members in your slots that give more stat bonuses than it costs to buy that slot.
As you level up, each Very Rare Crew give, I believe, about .5 stats per player level. If you are level 60, the light slots can each be worth about 30 stats, which would make up to the 6th light slot worthwhile i suppose, but not really before then, and you're still slowing down your ship for zero real stats/slots. I think the medium slot items give ~.6 stats per level, so they become break even points a little sooner.
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  #17  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Shadowy Figure Shadowy Figure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffles View Post
For those who haven't worked out the numbers: 455 points into command are required to reach 9/9/9, over 27 ship upgrades, which give 81 extra stats. Refer to the table below:
4/4/4 - 26 points, 26 CP in 4 tiers, +12 extra stats: Real cost = 14 CP or 3 levels
5/5/5 - 68 points, 42 CP in 4 tiers, +12 extra stats: Real cost = 30 CP or 6 levels
6/6/6 - 143 points, 75 CP in 5 tiers, +15 extra stats: Real cost = 60 CP or 12 levels
7/7/7 - 221 points, 78 CP in 4 tiers, +12 extra stats: Real cost = 66 CP or 13 levels
8/8/8 - 341 points, 120 CP in 5 tiers, +15 extra stats: Real cost = 105 CP or 21 levels
9/9/9 - 455 points, 114 CP in 4 tiers, +12 extra stats: Real cost = 102 CP or 20 levels
I modded my game and checked out the Command stat at level 100. The points required to upgrade your ship stop increasing at 20 points per upgrade so I took screenshots. The exact numbers do nothing to invalidate anyone's desire for changes but maybe someone wants more accurate numbers to look at. *shrug*

I also took a peak at some shops and found a nice medium slot stat booster.

Here's a pic of Command stat info and a Neural Interface IX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffles View Post
That item's timing is definitely a bug. I'm 80% certain that the duration and reuse time are supposed to be swapped, and the other 20% is that the duration is correct and reuse time is supposed to be vastly higher. I'm a little appalled that nobody reported that as a bug.
I don't see how it's bugged. Why would a ship only be able to redirect power for a limited time? In movies, combat situations are always emergencies. The item makes perfect sense to me. I can see someone argue that it gives too much energy regen and that the debuff to shield regen is laughable but those aren't bugs.
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  #18  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:02 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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OK. So here's the thing. The utility of command points not only is negative between ship sizes, it also becomes marginally useful. Why? Because once you have enough slots, the need for more slots decreases significantly. The problem in the early game is that you barely have enough slots for your basic functions + weapons. Once you get to around 6/6/6 slots, there's really no need for more. Sure, it's always nice to have more, but it's really not necessary.

So, it takes around 143 points to get to 6/6/6. Let's say I want to get to this size by level 50. After that, I don't need to invest any more into command -- it's not worth the opportunity cost. That would require investing 143/50 = 2.8 points per level into command. That leaves me with only 2.2 points per level for everything else! However, I do get my race's bonus points at every ship upgrade, so let's say I have roughly 40 extra points in something. Divided over the 50 levels, it's another 0.8 point, meaning that I have 3 points per level to spend. If I spend 2 points on my preferred stat (in order to keep up with the stat requirements), I'll have only 1 point to divide between all 4 other stats. In other words, it doesn't seem like this can work - I won't keep up with stat requirements.

Now what if I say my goal is to reach 6/6/6 by the end of the game? To do this, I need to invest 143/100 = 1.4 points per level. How big will my ship be by say, level 50? 50x1.4 = 70 points into command, which gives me a ship of 5/5/5. Not too shabby. I have 3.6 points per level to spend, + the extra 40 points from command averaged over 100, so I have 4 points per level to spend. This is exactly the math I did earlier on in the thread, and even this doesn't hold up very well (as you can see over there).

In any case, it looks like a ship of 6/6/6 is pretty much the best you can hope for.
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  #19  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowy Figure View Post
I don't see how it's bugged. Why would a ship only be able to redirect power for a limited time? In movies, combat situations are always emergencies. The item makes perfect sense to me. I can see someone argue that it gives too much energy regen and that the debuff to shield regen is laughable but those aren't bugs.
It looks like a bug because the use time of 30 seconds and reuse time of 10 seconds make much more sense if they're switched around. There's no reason to have a reuse time after 10 seconds when it lasts 30 seconds. Why have a reuse time at all then?

However, rather than a bug, I'd say this is a balance issue. If emergency energy is supposed to be much higher than the corresponding regular energy chargers at that level (and it seems like it is), then it needs to have a very real cost. What's usually done with buffs like this is that they can only last a certain amount of time and then you can't use them for a while. So they give you a higher benefit for a limited time. The fact that this item also has a cost in terms of movement and shield regen makes the analysis and balance more complicated. Clearly, some cost was supposed to be offset by the penalties rather than by the cooldown time. The shield recharge penalty is minor though, because shields don't recharge well anyway. The movement penalty is more serious -- going from 150 to 120 is a pretty big deal. This is another reason that 10 seconds usage makes more sense than committing to 30 seconds of slowdown. In any case, the cooldown should certainly be at least a little longer than the actual effect of the item.

Last edited by Bluddy : 06-28-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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  #20  
Old 06-28-2012, 01:44 PM
Waffles Waffles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowy Figure View Post
...maybe someone wants more accurate numbers to look at. *shrug*

I also took a peak at some shops and found a nice medium slot stat booster.

Here's a pic of Command stat info and a Neural Interface IX.
I sure like accurate numbers to look at ^_^. Thanks a bunch! That actually has substantial implications, because I was looking at max slots as 9/9/9 - so substantial formula changes are in order. The stat booster is interesting too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
In any case, it looks like a ship of 6/6/6 is pretty much the best you can hope for.
That 6/6/6 is the best you can hope for makes me pretty sad. Looking numerically at the game as it is now, I'm quite certain that 7/7/7 is the most that anyone will ever reach. 8/8/8 is just way too expensive.

The extra slots remain useful, for things like a 2nd power plant, more weapons, temporary boost components, stat up components, crew, computers, etc. I would love to see the game blossom into a plethora of options, and everything past level 50 be icing flowers on top of the icing on the cake.

//The following is actually an idea about a greater character progression rework//
Lets not forget that action RPGs generally run through about the one difficulty, and many players don't make it more than about halfway through the next difficulty. The first quarter of the progression curve should be exciting! The game should open up by level 25, and the average player should be expected to have a ship of 5/5/5 by then.

Because the game is built with 30 ship tiers in mind, I'm almost thinking that ShipLevels should always cost 5, and make the filler levels less filler-y. They should give structure/power/thrust?/weight/energy/eps. That way they're still exciting, but keep the slot count in check. And it would always only be 1 level away. Changing that along with reducing component stat/ilevel and slowing down the pace of leveling i think would be really exciting: make each level mean so much more, and not burn through normal difficulty right away.
//General character progression rework idea over//
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