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  #1  
Old 10-24-2016, 03:50 PM
Destro*'s Avatar
Destro* Destro* is offline
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Default All Difficulty Mods Brainstorming

Brainstorming First

Hey all. I'm looking for anybody who is willing to discuss the all difficulty mods victory with me. I've tried quite a few theories, but it's just ridiculous how hard it is. So, I'm writing this in the hopes that somebody (or many people) will brainstorm with me.

Wall of text ahead so the tl;dr is: I think it's impossible, but maybe some of this stuff works. Do you have any ideas?

Mods:

The difficulty mods enabled are: Hardcore, Unlucky, Poverty, Lost, Prima Dona, Cursed, Ego, Fragile, Clumsy, Loner.
The one's not enabled are Semi-Hardcore and Family.

The Challenge / My Thoughts on this Mode:

The majority of your leveling will be done with only your starting legendary/cursed weapon.

- Vendors: While possible to buy set+ items, incredibly rare. 1 hour of refreshing with a macro yielded me nothing, so gl wtih this.
- Drops: Cursed drops are rare. But, getting a cursed drop that is also set+ is extra rare. Expect nothing in in this regard.

You can try to increase your chance of getting cursed gear. But, everything is practically useless. The "Cursed" modifer on areas doesn't seem to do crap (.1% x 1,000% chance is still only 1%, and then set+ is super rare on top of that). And, being 'cursed' only curses items that you are wearing, and doesn't effect your inventory (would be really nice if it effected inventory, btw).

Thus, you're practically forced into specing all points into vitality and getting pain delay because you will have no armor, resists, defense or anything to help you survive other than raw health.

As a final note, this brainstorming is meant to discuss winning without relying massive RNG swings, because they are unreliable. The goal is to find a viable 'path' toward victory for all.

The Builds:

This is where the bulk of my discussion is at, I suppose. I'm going to lead with what I've found 'doesn't work' and then go into what I think 'does/can' work.

- Melee is an auto-out, of course, because you will have crap defenses.
- Attack based builds that rely on Dex aren't feasible. Clumsy makes dexterity too expensive to invest into. So, swords/staves/bow reliant builds are all out.

Because of these two conditions, we already decrease our pool of options by over half. And, we will have to focus mainly on spells and non-weapon damage reliant builds. The reason why I say 'non-weapon reliant' builds is because there are early game skills like Poison Arrow (which I cover later), which don't need a good main hand weapon.

So, let's talk spells.

- Pro: Spells don't miss, which means you can skip dexterity (so long as you aren't using staves).
- Con: Mana is a huge issue. Lack of spell damage means that only way to increase damage is to level up skills, which consequently results in high mana costs that are annoying and hard to manage.
- Neutral: Spells don't have the luxury of increasing 'weapon damage' to modify spell damage and gain significant boost. But, since you arguably can't acquire that bonus with any dex based gear (and melee gear (all str based) is out), this point is null.
- Neutral: Ranged builds scale with +projectiles on gear and spells scale with +spell damage on gear.

So, this brings us to the 'ideal classes'. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they are the 'big four' as I called them in the past. Dark Templar, Shaman, Archer and Druid.

- Dark Templar is extremely potent in indirect ways. The early vitality % is excellent by itself when going for pain delay. The ability to wear capes and mail is also extremely useful when you are running Prima Dona + Cursed and want to max your survivability. Then, as always, the late game scaling that this class provides is nuts and one of a kind. As much as I want to swap this for something else, it almost feels mandatory no matter what.

- Archer is great because of Poison Arrow. But, it also has scaling into lightning arrow late game when you can get dex pots and potentially invest into flat dexterity.

- Druid has Mana Regen and Strength of Stone. Both are incredibly potent spells because Mana Regen doesn't 'slow down' when mobs are around. And, of course, Strength of Stone makes meeting gear requirements very easy. By relogging, it's quite easy to reset the timer on Mana Regen which gives you a permanent, not crap, mana regeneration bonus.... so long as you invest into it enough.

- Shaman's only real use is because of hardiness. Holy Fire + Convergence is nice for its fast offensive scaling. But, the mana cost scales so fast, that its really hard to use practically, just like all spells, and almost has to be paired with Druid to be made viable. But, then you lose out on Dark Templar's perks, which sucks.

So, yeah. Those are the 'big classes'. Now, some notable mentions.

Exploding Shot + Convergence seems interesting. But, you lose too much to make it work.

Gut, because it can stack once (2 instances of gut active at once), can actually be a surprisingly powerful killer. BUT, you're forced into melee range and the mana cost is nuts. Also, it may be influenced by attack can miss/be blocked/parried, though I didn't test because it has too much going against it imho. But, maybe there is some viability somewhere.

Now, I'll talk about my character AAA.

AAA:

AAA is currently a level 27 Archer, Dark Templar that has used all free points to level poison arrow. Poison Arrow is, imho, the only real viable skill to even make this work. The scaling is decent enough that I can kind of somewhat farm level 36 zones, which is actually amazing considering that it has no scaling help from outside sources. And, even if the attack is blocked/deflected/parried, the poison debuff will still apply (which really makes no sense logically, but whatever). Aside from the starter bow, AAA has 3 knapsacks and no issues with his/her/it's potion stock.

The main issue with this character right now is that the health scaling of monsters is starting to absolutely crap on the damage scaling of my poison arrow. I think I've spent nearly 30 minutes trying to level from 26-27. And, while that sounds really good, that's because I could farm level 30 zones in normal. Over time, the exp required combined with my farm speed will slow down substantially (even the jump from normal to champion is nuts). So, leveling and progressing is hell, and I think the only real way to get ahead is through pure time investment.

I was really hoping to use uncursed relics to scale it because I'm 99% sure that in the past you could get away with it. But, now, you can't use uncursed relics with the Cursed difficulty modifier on. Hell, I don't even know if relics can be cursed. So, I just gave up.

Even if I hit level 50 with this build, I don't feel confident that I'll acquire even a single usable item during this time. Finding a cursed, set+ item is already nuts hard. But, finding a cursed set+ item that actually does something useful is a third level of RNG which just breaks my hope to ever find a useable item. And, by the time that I do hit level 50, the amount of experience needed to reach level 75 (let alone 100) + the compounded difficulty from Elite mode will just break me (health scaling, damage taken, monster speed, etc.). So, I've decided to cut my losses in advance. If I want to hit level 100, I'll need a better strategy for sure. But, I'm beginning to doubt that there is one.

Edit: Here is the AAA.HTM file's contents: http://pastebin.com/Eg74bjqM

Conclusion:

Anyway, that's really all there is to say about this character. Does anybody else have any thoughts in how to get through this difficulty other than grind till you die? I thought that perhaps I'd have a chance, but right now I'm thinking I'm right with my previous assessment that this is actually an impossible difficulty mod combination to beat. Even with perfect pain delay management and kiting, I imagine that you will probably get one-shot by a zero counter play damage source (instant magic casts right on your position, unjukable homing projectiles, etc.) at some point before hitting level 100 simply due to lacking defenses.

Last edited by Destro* : 10-24-2016 at 03:56 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2016, 06:42 PM
abomination5 abomination5 is offline
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I only play normal (pathetic mode), so this may be off topic, but do you have any general build suggestions?

Did you ever try to druid-necromancer from this post?
http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37040

My favorite character from Din's was an Ice Mage/Defender. Good offense with shatter, and good defense with defender and ice slows. I believe shatter eventually got nerfed in Din's, but it was still relatively powerful the last time I played.

Zombasite opens up a lot more build with traits, especially Pain Delay and Mana Barrier, as you pointed out in your old post.
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2016, 03:57 PM
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Destro* Destro* is offline
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Ir's cool. Play what you think is fun. Even I started out on non-HC ;o.

I've actually played every base class up to 100 at this point (800% combat exp relics op). (Not every hybrid though). So, I did play a conjurer, but not a druid/necro.

Imo, summons are without a doubt the fastest clearing build in the game in the end game. Summons just instantly kill everything within a huge radius around you when movement speed and damage become nuts.

In order to level a summoner, get Shadow Bolt or Bolt of Gloom for leveling. Since they are projectiles, they are overpowered and can easily carry you through the game by themselves. Scale the skill you choose with %spell damage, +fire/magic damage respectively and +%extra projectiles (<- the overpowered mod). Then, transition to summons when item mods start getting decent (even level 20-25 is good enough really if you can amass a lot of +dmg, +ms, +res, +ar mods on gear).

In regards to Druid/Necro as a hybrid selection, it's good. I mean, technically everything is good and viable. But, you may want to change it based on how you want your character to play in the mid-late game and how optimized you want your build to be. My recommendation is to replace Druid with Dark Templar, because it's op.

The strength buff is cool, but overshadowed by Dark Templar's % str buff. The damage spells are good, but again, necro overshadows earthquake (and Nature's Revenge ofc) with its summon in the late game. Dark Templar also gives you access to mail, hp per vitality, and % vit scaling which is op and completely overshadows Druid's defenses. The mana buff given by druid is like the only real advantage you get. And, while it's actually really good while leveling, it's kind of useless late game when +mana regen on gear is very accessible and your summons can be cast out of combat and stick around for a long time (thus neutralizing the need for mana regen).

You don't have to pick Dark Templar. I just think it's the best. if you don't want it, I'd recommend picking some other defensive class like Defender, Shaman... or something else. I don't know, it's really up to your preferences.

---

On an unrelated note, going to try this run out again with Archer + Thief. I forgot about the poison scaling in the thief tree. Maybe I can make a miracle happen.
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  #4  
Old 10-31-2016, 12:32 PM
abomination5 abomination5 is offline
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I tried a Necromancer/Dark Templar over the weekend with good success.

I got several good +minion items, so I was able to switch over to mostly minion skill by level 8. Possibly not optimal, but I really wanted to get into using summons.

I had actually done an Ice Mage/Necromacer in Din's, and found it fairly effective. I replaced Defender with Necromancer as a defense tree, using summons to take the heat and provide a bit of extra DPS.

It was effective, but I ended up going back to defender, because I found myself getting oneshot too easily. With Pain Delay in Zombasite, that is probably less of an issue.

My Necromancer/Dark Templar is level 11 now. I have 2 melee skeletons, 1 bowman and 1 zombie. I mostly save my mana to create full health skeletons as needed, and contribute DPS with my two-handed +minion damage sword, while enemies focus on the summons. I can't take handle damage myself, so if they start to focus on me, I end up kiting and using bolt.

I can see this build getting fairly powerful over time.

One of the issues with Necromancer is that summons don't persist on save/load. I raised a really nice yellow zombie yesterday, just before I had to stop... too bad. Would be nice to have a fix for this, and buffs in general, possible in an expansion pack?

I'm not sure what buffs I will end up using for Dark Templar. It seems this tree is more powerful late game when you already have a good base to apply modifiers to, so I don't see myself investing there for a while.

The +% vitality is obviously good. I'll have to see if +%armor and defense end up being worthwhile for a summoner.

I'll mostly likely skip or do a minimum investment in +% damage. I have found myself using a sword still early on, so a bit of extra damage might be worth it.

For stats, I'll want to invest enough to get superman and pain delay at least.

The traits that allows you to share health/defense with minions could be very interesting as well. I'm not sure how Pain Delay will interact with those. If sharing health, I might end up taking too much damage when hit by an AOE, although it would potentially allow a self-heal by replacing damaged summons with full health ones.
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2016, 01:20 PM
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Destro* Destro* is offline
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Nice to see your thoughts.

One pretty nice feature of summons is that if a mob targets you and starts to chase you, then you can block its movement with your own summons, which makes kiting super easy. This becomes easier as you get more summons ofc.

The life sharing trait basically subtracts/adds health to you and nearby friendlies to balance your health with theirs each time you take damage. So, you do get free healing from summons if they have more health than you (and town members adventuring with you!). I don't have the char anymore, so I can't test. But, I'm pretty sure that other things dying can't kill you with the trait. BUT, you can still lose health from your friendlies. So, if your friendlies are dying quickly, then the trait can negatively impact your survivability.

Things to note about the trait are that the 'health updating' isn't instant, just extremely fast. So you can still be one-shot or burst down extremely quickly.

I'd also like to recommend: alchemist trait + pot effect affixes + status effect duration affixes + pain delay for survivability. With all of these, you become practically invulnerable to everything.

Anyway, gl.

Last edited by Destro* : 10-31-2016 at 06:34 PM.
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