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  #21  
Old 11-04-2010, 04:23 PM
jeremyosborne jeremyosborne is offline
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Of the three characters I'm playing right now, my Weaponmaster/Necromancer is turning into my favorite.

For awhile, I wasn't quite sure I could get the class to work, and had a hard time trying to decide just what the heck to do with it. After trying out a few different, and failed, skill point spending sprees, I realized I could make my character work.

The secret seems to be starting off slowly each time I log in until I find the appropriate monsters to reanimate. I love elite Dark Elf Mercenaries with stuff like stone skin or life leech. Even better, when I can find them, are the little scavengers that don't stay little for long with me. Those guys do some serious, serious tanking -- I've got enough points in the reanimate skill (sorry, I'm forgetting the actual skill name right now) to have 2 guys.

The other secret to this character turned out to be deciding to mix in a balance of enough defense -- mail armor + sword mastery, whirlwind for crowd control, and anything I could find in skills or items that would up my nasty damage modifiers -- mainly critical hit and deep wounds. Concentrating on upping those percentages from items vs. my usual quest for items that gave just defensive traits made the difference and made the build a lot more fun to play.

As an aside, I love how the reanimate spell doesn't have to be managed and will always replace the weaker of the monsters with a stronger monster, but there are times when for some odd reason -- usually a special a monster has -- that I'd like to keep the "weaker" monster around. An ability to forcefully unsummon my reanimated monsters would be useful in rare but sometimes important situations.
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2010, 04:47 PM
Übermann Übermann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonorai View Post
[...]

I noticed that shatter and bone shatter are pretty much the same skill with different damage types. Would it be of any use to make a necro/ice mage hybrid to be able to use both at once? Like an AOE bomb mage kinda thing.
Bone Shatter is way better than the wizard's shatter.
Bone Shatter does more much damage, and this difference increases when leveling up. Just some maths:

At level 1, wizard's shatter does a medium damage or 17.5 (10 - 25)
Bone Shatter at level 1 does that same amount of direct damag, BUT also 2 points of damage for 8 seconds. That's a total of 16 damage.
If we make some calculations, we got that Bone Shater at lvl1 does 91.42% more damage than wizard's shatter.

On level 2 numbers goes like this:
Wizard's Shatter : 15 - 40 = 27.5 medium damage
Bone Shatter: 15 - 40 = 27.5 medium damage + 32 Damage (4 over 8 secs) = 59.5. That's a 116.36% more damage than Wizard's Shatter.

On level 3, this are as follows:
Wizard's Shatter: 20 - 55 = 37.5 medium damage.
Bone Shatter: 20 - 55 = 37.5 medium damage + 48 (6 over 8 seconds) = 85.5. That's a 128.00% more damage than the wizard's Shatter.

And so on.

I think Bone Shatter is worth more than Shatter even when part of the damage in Bone Shatter is a DOT.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2010, 05:50 PM
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Leonorai Leonorai is offline
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Good calculations , but you have to remember that it does more damage because it's physical dmg , the other shatter is cold dmg. I would guess that monsters are more resistant to the former.

How much do you really sacrifice in terms of survivability going from a 1h and shield to a big dmg dealing 2hander? Is it significant?

Also , how do you people usually spend your stats on melee characters? I was experimenting with a full strength build (ala Titan Barbarian from Diablo if anyone knows what i'm talking about) but it didn't turn out as expected.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2010, 06:59 PM
Max_Powers Max_Powers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyosborne View Post
The secret seems to be starting off slowly each time I log in until I find the appropriate monsters to reanimate. I love elite Dark Elf Mercenaries with stuff like stone skin or life leech. Even better, when I can find them, are the little scavengers that don't stay little for long with me. Those guys do some serious, serious tanking -- I've got enough points in the reanimate skill (sorry, I'm forgetting the actual skill name right now) to have 2 guys.
I, too, love the little scavengers. I have even reanimated a little elite scavenger and that sure turned out well.

Have you noticed that they take on some of the abilities that the creatures they eat had? I once had just killed a boss or maybe super boss and then reanimated a scavenger. It ate the boss and took on some of it's abilities. Can't remember what they were but it made it amazing. I would love to have at least two elite scavengers that had fed on beneficial creatures, and then two elite creeping brood( or something like that) because they hit a ton and are invisible most of the time. Might even take two elite shadows instead of the brood.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2010, 07:08 PM
Stardusts Stardusts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Übermann View Post
Bone Shatter is way better than the wizard's shatter.
Bone Shatter does more much damage, and this difference increases when leveling up.
....
I think Bone Shatter is worth more than Shatter even when part of the damage in Bone Shatter is a DOT.
I have to disagree with you there, BS is a far more inferior skill compare to Shatter, they do the same direct and explosion dmg but BS has a DoT which makes it looks more powerful.... but its not.

First off you have to wait 8sec for the bonus dmg to takes full effect, would you wait while the monster is trying to bite your head off or just cast another spell to finish it? The DoT may seem a lot of dmg early on but at higher lv it won't do you anygood, so based on actual damage BS is just about the same as Shatter.
However it won't even come close to Shatter, why? Because Ice Mage has the Cold Mastery skill which boosts Shatter's damage significantly (again, later lv, for a char below lv50 it doesn't do much).

Bone Shatter is good for a support spell as being a Necromancer you have pets to do your dirty work. It is never meant to be a full time offensive spell like Shatter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonorai View Post
How much do you really sacrifice in terms of survivability going from a 1h and shield to a big dmg dealing 2hander? Is it significant?

Also , how do you people usually spend your stats on melee characters? I was experimenting with a full strength build (ala Titan Barbarian from Diablo if anyone knows what i'm talking about) but it didn't turn out as expected.
You only suffer little set back in the %dodge (as shield provides defense not armor-which is kind of weird). I would suggest using a 2h all the time because the 2h damage is way better than 1h, the only time you should switch is when facing a boss and you don't feel like taking even 1hit from him.

For my char I spend points in Str just enough to yield weapon and divide the rest equally between dex and vit (so early on it would be like 2str 2dex 1vit and later 0-1 str 2dex 2-3 vit- end game 1-2dex 3-4vit). Melee char often have skills to boost their dmg so you don't have to worry much about dmg output and avoid getting hit is just as good as being able to take the hits (tanking doesn't work well in this game).
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  #26  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:10 AM
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zespri zespri is offline
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I want to try a AOE based class / hybrid. Have you guys played any of those that you liked? (If such class is possible in Din's).
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2010, 07:25 AM
Übermann Übermann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zespri View Post
I want to try a AOE based class / hybrid. Have you guys played any of those that you liked? (If such class is possible in Din's).
At first sight Conjurer->Sorcerer + Wizard->IceMage looks a quite interesting possibility.
This have good survivality, good AoEs and good monster/crowd control.
I will try this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardusts View Post
I have to disagree with you there, BS is a far more inferior skill compare to Shatter, they do the same direct and explosion dmg but BS has a DoT which makes it looks more powerful.... but its not.
How can BS be inferior than shatter? They deal the same damage, with the same manacost and with the same casting time!! And costs the same skill points... :S
Plus BS has a DOT damage that doubles each level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardusts View Post
First off you have to wait 8sec for the bonus dmg to takes full effect, would you wait while the monster is trying to bite your head off or just cast another spell to finish it?
Depends on the situation. If the monster still have much health, I cast another spell to try finish him off.
If the monster is nearly 10% HP remaining, I leave him to die by the DOT, while i go killing another monster, or try to aggro more monster near the DOT'ed monster so the explossion hits more enemies. Or even go to attack others while that monster perish by the DOT.

You have plenty of good tactics to use with BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardusts View Post
The DoT may seem a lot of dmg early on but at higher lv it won't do you anygood, so based on actual damage BS is just about the same as Shatter.
The DOT damage each second doubles each level. If you realize, you will find that in a few levels the DOT damage is higher than the direct damage.
The monster's health doesn't doubles in the next level. Then, you are likely inflicting the same amount of damage, but in half time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardusts View Post
However it won't even come close to Shatter, why? Because Ice Mage has the Cold Mastery skill which boosts Shatter's damage significantly (again, later lv, for a char below lv50 it doesn't do much).
Are you kidding us?

Cold mastery only increases a 4% more damage each level.
Let's suppose that you have Shatter at level 5 and Ice Master at level 5:
Shatter damage = (10 - 20) + (5 - 15)x5 = 35 - 95 damage range.
Ice Mastery = 4% x 5 = 20% more damage
Total damage = 42 - 114 damage.
As you can see, you spent i_dont_know_how_many points and money in Ice Mastery to increase you level5 shatter just a couple points of damage.

Right now, with Bone Shatter level 5:
Damage = (10 - 20) + (5 - 15)x5 = 35 - 95 damage range (the same as shatter)
DOT Damage = 2 + 2*5 = 12 each second = 96 damage after 8 seconds.
Total damage = After the first second: 47 - 107; After the whole 8 seconds: 131 - 191.

You will realize that BS damage is way higher than Shatter.
Even just with the first second of the DOT, the damage of Shatter and BS are the same approx.


And remember that BS damage doubles each level, while Ice Mastery only gives a 4% more damage.
You can think of this that BS increases it's damage to 200% while Ice Mastery does a 104%.
Also while leveling up Ice Mastery, you are not leveling Shatter, so it's base direct damage doesnt increases, while in BS you do, so just a single level you don't lvlup shatter, BS overdamages shatter in the direct and explossion damage.

Additionally, your Ice Mage character needs much more levels than a Conjurer to reach skills and a direct damage like the Conjurer.

Also don't forget that you spent a lot of skill points and money into ice mastery, while BS don't need such to deal the 20% more damage that ice mastery gives. Or you can forget about Ice Mastery and reduce the damage of Shatter a 20%, so waiting the first second of the DOT in BS will do more damage than shatter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stardusts View Post
Bone Shatter is good for a support spell as being a Necromancer you have pets to do your dirty work. It is never meant to be a full time offensive spell like Shatter.
It depends on the build of your conjurer, but a caster conjurer can use bone shatter as part of it's damage output, appart of other strategies.

Last edited by Übermann : 11-05-2010 at 07:33 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2010, 09:22 AM
abomination5 abomination5 is offline
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My ice mage can kill normal enemies in less than a second with shatter (using 2x -60% cast speed items). I've tried both and bone shatter is definitely inferior because enemies don't live long enough for the DOT to come into play.

With my character I have 604 points to spend on shatter/bone shatter:


Level 26 shatter: 125-230

Level 25 Ice Master: 158% damage

Gives 198-363 damage

Using my 604 points on bone shatter I can afford level 29:

Level 29 bone shatter:

170-320 damage

Bone shatter also does physical damage so I believe it is reduced by armor. Maybe shadow could chime in on that one.

Last edited by abomination5 : 11-05-2010 at 09:37 AM.
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:41 PM
jeremyosborne jeremyosborne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_Powers View Post
I, too, love the little scavengers. I have even reanimated a little elite scavenger and that sure turned out well.

Have you noticed that they take on some of the abilities that the creatures they eat had?
A lot of stuff happens so quickly in my games, I'm never certain if something is predictably true or accidental. But yeah, now that you mention it, I do seem to remember seeing some of my monsters, most likely scavengers, getting better over time. I'll keep an eye out for it now and try to confirm this. Thanks for reminding me of this, as it will make reanimate even better.
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2010, 04:29 PM
Stardusts Stardusts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyosborne View Post
A lot of stuff happens so quickly in my games, I'm never certain if something is predictably true or accidental. But yeah, now that you mention it, I do seem to remember seeing some of my monsters, most likely scavengers, getting better over time. I'll keep an eye out for it now and try to confirm this. Thanks for reminding me of this, as it will make reanimate even better.
Scavenger eats 5 times and yeah they do gain the ability of the monster they eat (sorry my earlier post said it doesnt, and i was wrong after some testing). So if you manage to get a scavenger feeds him well and he'll be unstoppable- its a necromancer's dream pet. Aside from scavenger I don't think any monster you reanimate gonna get better with time.

Last edited by Stardusts : 11-05-2010 at 06:26 PM.
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