Bring back DoP Stat Achievement Bonuses

[Crisses]

First, to do this I think that we shouldn't be able to take stat points back. Once allocated, we're done. Otherwise we'd just allocate points to a stat, earn the achievement and move them to another stat. i.e. right now I could move points to Strength to arm items, then move them back to Vitality for the health bonuses. :P I don't like that, it's exploitable.

Second, I think that stat "achievement" bonuses from DoP should be reinstated. This alone might "fix" the imbalances between the classes, the complaints about resistances, etc.

Each achievement bonus starts at 50 natural points and every 50 points the bonus escalates significantly (and cumulative). Example: at 50 = +5, 100 = +10 (total +15), 150 = +20 (total +35), 200 = +30 (total +65), 250 = +50 (total +80) -- AND you can't get the bonus with potions or item bonuses.

Strength: Damage bonus or attack/hit bonus. (could be damage +50, +100 etc. if that's better balancing)
Dexterity: Defense/dodge/avoid (whichever is best) bonus.
Vitality: hit point bonus (again could be +50, +100 etc. for a total of +800 hit points if you get to vitality 250)
Intelligence: skill point bonus (trust me the extra 80 skill points if you make it to 250 natural intelligence isn't going to go far in the skill trees by then -- that barely pays for the level 6 teleport...)
Spirit: resistance bonus

I think this rewards careful planning of your stat points, and highlights what each class "should be" good in, while giving mild rewards to those who choose to allocate points more evenly between stats i.e. a fighter can have a moderate to high Intelligence and get some extra skill points, but sacrifices the potential for extra HP/defense or damage to do so.

By level 100 you get 500 stat points to allocate, and you have about 50 to start with. So you'd only get a 250 achievement bonus in 2 stats if you REALLY dedicated yourself to those 2 stats. Not darned likely. folks MIGHT have 1 250 stat, and 2 at 100, leaving the remaining 2 pretty low, which is pretty well balanced. i.e. a mage with 250 natural intelligence, 100 vitality, 50 dex, 50 str, 100 spirit.

Thoughts?

[Manumitted]

Originally Posted by Crisses

First, to do this I think that we shouldn't be able to take stat points back. Once allocated, we're done. Otherwise we'd just allocate points to a stat, earn the achievement and move them to another stat. i.e. right now I could move points to Strength to arm items, then move them back to Vitality for the health bonuses. :P I don't like that, it's exploitable.

Thoughts?

I agree with this. Back when I suggested Undo/Commit Changes buttons on the stat screen, I wanted stat changes to be permanent once you hit that CC button. Saving up stat points for a few levels to experiment with hypothetical stat spends is entirely different (and disadvantages you in the meantime) than deciding to, say, make your muscleman into a Crit-crazy brainiac 20 levels later because you found a Garrip's Charm and don't need the 50 points of surplus STR anymore.

[Maledictus]

I'm against the undo altogether, as i've stated before, but that met with fierce opposition. I think "no undo" enforces roleplaying, and undo is being too soft on the player (I feel). But that's very old-school I suppose. Perhaps an undo that works until you press the 'Ok' on the stats/skills screen (like in TQ)? Or make "no undo" a part of HC mode(s)?
It's easy enough to mod "no undo" yourself, but how to do that stat stuff I don't know.
I too like the stat bonus system in DoP, and maybe there's a way it could be made to work in DC.

[Nim]

Originally Posted by Maledictus

I'm against the undo altogether, as i've stated before, but that met with fierce opposition. I think "no undo" enforces roleplaying, and undo is being too soft on the player (I feel). But that's very old-school I suppose.

Undo is an option. Nobody forces you to use it. Why do you want to force your preferred style of "no undo" upon others ?? "Enforcing roleplaying" What is it with people that they always want to tell other people how to have fun ?
Also, do you really want no possibilty to undo skills when there is no readily available information out there what later levels of the skill do/ how they scale ?

[Bluddy]

I'll add my voice to the 'no undo' crowd. Undo's make sense for skills -- not so much for the basic attributes. I think it is useful for one function though: suppose I wanted to get to 30 strength for a weapon, but I accidentally added dexterity. A small undo is good in this case. But more undoing should be prevented by raising prices exponentially.

Not sure about this boost idea from DoP and how it'll impact balance. It makes the attribute points a little less linear, and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Not sure about this boost idea from DoP and how it'll impact balance. It makes the attribute points a little less linear, and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

It's not really a "boost" to the stat gain itself. It's an achievement award. I'm with the "Undo until commit" side on the stats. Yes, I might accidentally click dex and mean str, and it's cool to allow me to change it until I close my Character screen or click a "Commit" button. But I don't think that I should train my muscles until I look like Atlas only later to decide I'd rather be lithe and flexible like a Cirque de Soleil contortionist. It might cost enough to pay for the plastic surgery, but I still think it could lead to exploitation.

On my idea: One shouldn't gain an achievement bonus until point allocation is committed. So once I commit to 50 STR, I get the permanent +?? bonus on the character. I was just thinking this could be one place where a reward for the higher INT of a mage would give the extra skill points we were talking about rather than as a skill-tree bonus (which also would be OK if it's easier on the game developers).

[Maledictus]

Originally Posted by Nim

Also, do you really want no possibilty to undo skills when there is no readily available information out there what later levels of the skill do/ how they scale ?

For myself, yes. But I'd never force any of my ideas on others, I'm just expressing my opinion, adding to the merry cloud of thoughts that surrounds this game. Sorry if my wording made you think otherwise. I suppose the word 'enforce' went down the wrong way here. It's really just part of an expression, it doesn't imply the need for world domination.
And like I said, it's easy enough to mod out the undo button, so that's most likely what I'll do in the end.

[Fosse]

I'd like to see the option to rearrange stats -- for free -- before closing the screen. That way I could see what various figures my points would get me in different attributes.

But after commiting to the changes by closing the screen, I'd like to see the changes be permanent.

[Maledictus]

It's been suggested before, but how about making it a part of the game world? Add a NPC type (Mystic) that you need to go see to make changes. Make it expensive to create a moneysink/deterrent factor. Have the NPC show up at random or rare times, like the beastmaster does now (if I'm correct). I still think this should only work for skill points though. As far as the stats go, I too subscribe to the 'undo until commit' idea.

[DeathKnight1728]

Originally Posted by Crisses

First, to do this I think that we shouldn't be able to take stat points back. Once allocated, we're done. Otherwise we'd just allocate points to a stat, earn the achievement and move them to another stat. i.e. right now I could move points to Strength to arm items, then move them back to Vitality for the health bonuses. :P I don't like that, it's exploitable.

Second, I think that stat "achievement" bonuses from DoP should be reinstated. This alone might "fix" the imbalances between the classes, the complaints about resistances, etc.

Each achievement bonus starts at 50 natural points and every 50 points the bonus escalates significantly (and cumulative). Example: at 50 = +5, 100 = +10 (total +15), 150 = +20 (total +35), 200 = +30 (total +65), 250 = +50 (total +80) -- AND you can't get the bonus with potions or item bonuses.

Strength: Damage bonus or attack/hit bonus. (could be damage +50, +100 etc. if that's better balancing)
Dexterity: Defense/dodge/avoid (whichever is best) bonus.
Vitality: hit point bonus (again could be +50, +100 etc. for a total of +800 hit points if you get to vitality 250)
Intelligence: skill point bonus (trust me the extra 80 skill points if you make it to 250 natural intelligence isn't going to go far in the skill trees by then -- that barely pays for the level 6 teleport...)
Spirit: resistance bonus

I think this rewards careful planning of your stat points, and highlights what each class "should be" good in, while giving mild rewards to those who choose to allocate points more evenly between stats i.e. a fighter can have a moderate to high Intelligence and get some extra skill points, but sacrifices the potential for extra HP/defense or damage to do so.

By level 100 you get 500 stat points to allocate, and you have about 50 to start with. So you'd only get a 250 achievement bonus in 2 stats if you REALLY dedicated yourself to those 2 stats. Not darned likely. folks MIGHT have 1 250 stat, and 2 at 100, leaving the remaining 2 pretty low, which is pretty well balanced. i.e. a mage with 250 natural intelligence, 100 vitality, 50 dex, 50 str, 100 spirit.

Thoughts?

Ok first let me say that this is a great idea. I have a few ideas of my own but first let me explain why i think so. Being able to take back skill points is necessary, without it there would countless frustrations. However, the reason that you shouldnt be able to take back stat points is because there is almost no risk at all like you said. Without at least some risk, an rpg is not an rpg.

Now for the bonuses I have a few ideas. I think that the way you reach every 50 stat points is immaculate. However, I will give you my own thoughts on what you receive per 50 points per stat. These are just my thoughts so they might be a little off.

-Strength: Damage bonus was your first idea and i like that one. A bonus for melee damage might work however i dont know how much.

-Dexterity: This one i think should be all defense. A 5% bonus to your TOTAL defense. Being able to hit creatures can be reached through items, being able to not be hit from damage in the thousands is harder to reach imho.

-Vitality: Vitality is where i stop and think what matters more. Now initially i would go with health. However, when reaching 60 with my assassin hybrid, extra health might help stop a lot of damage, but physical resistance would be better. 5% added to your damage resistance per 50 constitution. Can you imagine how good this would be for mages and fragile characters. If it is done like this, i might be able to play my assassin/icemage hybrid again without getting tanked

-Intelligence: Everything you said, i agree with.

-Spirit: This one i dont know. Resistance might be good but you'd have to get a percent based on it to be effective. 5% maybe, idk.

Thats my 2 cents. Im glad that this was mentioned as i missed getting to lvl 10 and getting my little bonus like in dop. Hopefully this will be implemented.