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  #1  
Old 03-30-2011, 11:33 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Default Spell Critical Hits

Shadow, currently all a mage really needs to invest in is INT and some VIT. What this causes is that optimizing players just put all of their points into those 2 stats, causing their mana to max out as early as level 30 (with item bonuses).

I think it would be good to give pure mages a reason to invest in other stats. How about making magical critical hits come from DEX instead of INT? It actually makes sense narratively as well: a mage with high dexterity has a better chance of carrying out the moves for casting the spell 'perfectly' ie. with a critical hit.

I'd love to also give mages a use for STR. Since mages have to cast spells while wearing armor, it makes sense that even cloth armor should have a basic (low) STR requirement, say 1.0 per level. Heavy cloth armor will cause difficulty in casting spells (leather should have a slightly higher requirement). Even if mages get most of this minimal STR from ring and jewelry bonuses
a) good jewelry is fairly rare and
b) it means they have to worry about their STR just a little. They might put just a few more points into it so they can get that higher level cloth armor, which means they won't exhaust their INT so quickly.
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2011, 03:01 PM
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Shadow Shadow is offline
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Both of those could be interesting, I'll have to think about it.
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:22 AM
Brysos Brysos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
Shadow, currently all a mage really needs to invest in is INT and some VIT. What this causes is that optimizing players just put all of their points into those 2 stats, causing their mana to max out as early as level 30 (with item bonuses)..
While I do pump points into VIT it isn't very effective as the class doesn't get any VIT modifiers unless you hybrid. Dex is fairly useful as it allows you to avoid getting hit and allows you to wield some staves.

If a third stat is going to be required to make an effective wizard it should probably be spirit. As it stands it is not a compelling stat, the resists just are not needed and the mana regen isn't that compelling.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:45 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Brysos View Post
While I do pump points into VIT it isn't very effective as the class doesn't get any VIT modifiers unless you hybrid. Dex is fairly useful as it allows you to avoid getting hit and allows you to wield some staves.

If a third stat is going to be required to make an effective wizard it should probably be spirit. As it stands it is not a compelling stat, the resists just are not needed and the mana regen isn't that compelling.
VIT is still essential for mages. You probably won't have enough DEX to avoid getting hit. However, there are basically 2 ways to play mage. You can play as a pure spell mage and just focus on spells. The problem is that then you have only INT and VIT to invest in. You don't get high level staves because you don't expect to be able to hit creatures. The problem with this mage is that he gets mana so fast, that there's nothing stopping him from going too far in the skill tree and making the game trivial.

The other type of mage expects to hit a little when he needs to. He balances his INT and VIT with some DEX and a little STR. This mage is fine.

Right now in my balance mod, I put low STR and DEX requirements on cloth and leather armor to prevent the first type of mage from overdoing the mana bit.

BTW you're right about SPR. It's a minimal source of mana for the mage once he can't get any more INT. The main issue is that the game has very few elemental threats. This is why I wanted Shadow to make monster mages more dangerous. Almost all of the serious damage coming at you is physical, which is why you don't really need or care about high resistances.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:06 PM
menscher menscher is offline
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I actually find that VIT and DEX are both quite useful for a pure mage. There's have been several points along the way of playing a fire-only mage where I had plenty of mana and was dealing plenty of damage, so pumping INT wasn't so important. But I was fragile. So both VIT and DEX and even SPI were a better use of attribute points.

To be more specific, at lvl 52 I've pumped VIT and INT about evenly, and have DEX at about half of those. This DEX level means I get hit about 55% of the time instead of 70-75% if I only had DEX bonuses from equipment. I'd wager that this difference has prevented several deaths along the way.

Plus, the DEX requirement for staves is meaningful. It's not about the damage per se. Higher-level staves have better bonuses to health, mana, +regen, stats, lower cast time, etc etc. So there's an incentive to keep DEX at a level to be able to use the staves you find along the way.

Elemental resistances may also be a bit underrated. A bunch of lightning elementals can wreak havoc if you don't have the resist, as can poison assassins or spiders or bats if you have no poison resistance. And many bosses have are 'imbued' with an element so can do big additional damage if your resistance is weak.

I do definitely agree that the resistance bonus per point of SPI should be greater, to create more bang for the buck when you pump it.
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Old 04-03-2011, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by menscher View Post
Plus, the DEX requirement for staves is meaningful. It's not about the damage per se. Higher-level staves have better bonuses to health, mana, +regen, stats, lower cast time, etc etc. So there's an incentive to keep DEX at a level to be able to use the staves you find along the way.
Most (in not all) of the DEX requirement can be made using a potion, just long enough to equip the staff. (Or keep a couple of high DEX bonus clothing in the town chest.) But I agree that having a slightly better chance to hit or avoid being hit is a good enough reason to sink some points into DEX.
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Old 04-03-2011, 03:17 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Bak View Post
Most (in not all) of the DEX requirement can be made using a potion, just long enough to equip the staff. (Or keep a couple of high DEX bonus clothing in the town chest.) But I agree that having a slightly better chance to hit or avoid being hit is a good enough reason to sink some points into DEX.
I don't think it's a good reason, and I'll tell you why: spells have no level requirements. A super mage who gains a ton of mana right away can upgrade his spells way past they level they were designed for and obliterate all enemies before they can hurt him. The only enemies that would be able to hurt him are the monster mages, and DEX doesn't help with them anyway. To prevent this super mage from gathering all his mana right away, he needs to be forced to invest some points in DEX and perhaps STR too. If magic crits come from DEX, he'll have to invest in DEX. If cloth armor has a basic STR requirement, he'll have to invest just a little in STR.

Elemental enemies are generally very weak. Just see how many lightning bolts you can take before dying. This was done on purpose because monster spells don't use attack and defend, but in my opinion this reduction makes SPR less appealing.

At the same time, I don't like the way that SPR gives you blanket resistances to all elements. It's much more interesting when you are protected only from 1 element, or are sensitive to one element. For example, it doesn't really make sense that SPR gives you poison, fire and lightning protection. It should really only give you protection against magic. But there are very few monsters doing magic damage in the game.

It would also be cool if wearing plate armor made you more sensitive to lightning, for example. Things like that would mix up the pace. You should be fearful of poison damage -- it should be much more scary than getting hit by normal monsters. Lightning should be lethal rather than a minor thing. Enemy mages should be feared by warriors while they are far away, and be cut down easily once you close the distance. Of course rangers could finish them off easily, and that does makes sense. Though they could have some anti-missile enchantment on them. Basically, I feel like much of this stuff is underused.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2011, 03:29 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Oh and regarding using a potion to equip this or that -- that loophole really needs to be closed already. It doesn't make sense, as has been stated in another thread. There is no reason that items you can't afford should keep working on you. I think this is one of the things that really hurts the game in the eyes of many players, since it feels cheap. It appears to the player as if the dev just didn't bother to put in the code to make the item not work.

The issue of handling curses that decrease your stats and make critical items not work when you need them is fairly simple:
1) artificial (temporary) decreases in stats shouldn't affect item equipping. Artificial (temporary) increases either should or shouldn't, depending on how easy it is to handle differently from decreases.
2) Another, simpler option is that once an item cannot be worn, every one of its effects is decreased by 50% or more depending on how far away from the requirements one is. This won't be lethal to the point that it'll automatically kill characters, but it will make the point that items that can't be handled are simply not effective. At this point, it's up to the player. He/she may prefer to wear said item even with its 50% reduction, and that's his/her prerogative. Despite its simplicity, this solution is really good because it turns a near-broken gameplay element (in the eyes of players) into one that's strategic ie. it's now legitimate to use potions to equip items if you're willing to live with the consequences.

Last edited by Bluddy : 04-03-2011 at 03:46 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2011, 05:14 PM
menscher menscher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bak View Post
Most (in not all) of the DEX requirement can be made using a potion, just long enough to equip the staff. (Or keep a couple of high DEX bonus clothing in the town chest.) But I agree that having a slightly better chance to hit or avoid being hit is a good enough reason to sink some points into DEX.
That's true about using DEX potions just to equip staves. I personally never use stat potions to equip gear like that, it feels like cheating or a bad loophole to me... but your point is taken that as the game is designed, the potions are a way for a mage to get around having to put points in DEX.
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