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  #21  
Old 06-24-2009, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by The Roshambo Warrior View Post
Usually my most desired feature to be included into a dungeon crawler would be: lore, lore, and tons of discovered lore. It could just be a bit here and there picked up as you go through the areas, but it would add quite a bit. The little Diablo 2 had offered some detail, but I think others could do far better. Titan Quest had some, but it seemed to be isolated mostly in cities. Hack and slash dungeon crawlers seem to get a little stale after playing the dozenth or so one. I always feel I gotta have some reason to want to poke around besides loot and constantly kicking butt.
If you haven't yet, you really should play Depths of Peril. There is tons of lore if you read the tomes in DoP, read the monster histories, and read the zone histories.

I'm a fan of lore myself. I'm not sure how we are going to add more lore to this game. We probably won't go the DoP route. Right now some ideas are to add blurbs to unique items and add some lore into the npc dialog. We also will probably do a bestiary thing like we did in Kivi's Underworld.

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A vampiric blade, which starts out mediocre and possible less than other items, which you "feed" by taking the life of monsters. That sounds like one decent example, while adding in some challenge. Wait, it gets better, and for reasons of game balance. Undead, mechanicals, or similar, it could be useless against, preventing it from being a "macro weapon" of being able to kill anything if you leveled it high enough. That way you would have to keep alternative weapons around for those situations.
Something like this would be cool.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:04 PM
flushfirex flushfirex is offline
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Originally Posted by FloodSpectre View Post
Another source of fantastic item design is King's Bounty. Artifacts have Keepers the player needs to defeat to improve the item to its next level. This gives some incentive to pick a favorite artifact and lug it with you throughout the game, eventually upgrading it when you feel you're strong enough to take on its Keepers. Another way of improving certain items is to perform actions the item likes. An Elven bow might be improved by having elves in your party, and by killing orcs. A dwarven axe, on the other hand, might become weaker because you've just used it to kill some dwarves.
I'm sorry but I will have to disagree on this. I am a fan of KB:TL myself but IMO the concept of Keepers and Item Morale is far from fantastic.

1) It is essentially just a combat minigame. And in a game that has tons of combat why anyone would find needing more combat just to upgrade/upkeep items "fantastic design" is far beyond me. Take for example that dwarven axe. It's morale drops whenever you fight dwarves. If it's morale drops low enough it loses it's abilities/bonuses. Then you'd have to fight it's keepers to reset it's morale. Most of the time it's either you're strong enough to defeat those keepers or you're not. If you are strong enough, then it's just a repeating cycle of defeating those keepers whenever the item's morale drops and if you're not then comes problem no.

2) The item basically becomes an item with charges that you'd dispose of once those charges run out. Because you are not powerful enough yet to defeat the keepers, you'd have to make yourself stronger, and in the process of doing so you will eventually find something just a little inferior or even better than the item you are trying to restore, making it obsolete.

3) Most of the restrictions/balance that this mechanic imposes have already been covered by simpler item restrictions. Using the same example, why not just put something like "Ineffective against dwarves" attribute in the dwarven axe. Granted, it is better that it still be effective against dwarves but have the player suffer consequences later but again we are back to problem no.1 if you are strong enough to deal with the keepers and if you're not then chances are you won't be using it against dwarves anyway, which is the same as the item being "Ineffective against dwarves".

IMO, one great item mechanic in KB is the "grants one-time bonus after certain requirements met" for example an amulet gains the attribute +mana on top of its usual attributes after 50 victories while wearing it. This would be great in a sword, say, a generic Slayer becomes [Creature]slayer (Orcslayer, Elfslayer) after the player kills a number of those creatures with it, granting it a one-time bonus of added damage against them.
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Sounds cool. I've always been interested in some kind of system where some items could gain experience and level some how.
I think the MMO route, items that upgrade equipment but with differing chance of success depending on the rarity of the upgrade item and the rarity of the item being upgraded, with some modification could fit that description somewhat.

Last edited by flushfirex : 06-24-2009 at 04:20 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:29 PM
The Roshambo Warrior The Roshambo Warrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
If you haven't yet, you really should play Depths of Peril. There is tons of lore if you read the tomes in DoP, read the monster histories, and read the zone histories.

I'm a fan of lore myself. I'm not sure how we are going to add more lore to this game. We probably won't go the DoP route. Right now some ideas are to add blurbs to unique items and add some lore into the npc dialog. We also will probably do a bestiary thing like we did in Kivi's Underworld.
I've got a lot on my plate already. 3 game reviews, a couple of entire series to review, as well as developing my own games. Right now I'm playing hooky from the compiler as a break, and thought I'd offer an idea or two. Figures that an indie developer would have those bases already covered.

If your design already has a lot of lore, keep on going with it, it definitely stands out then and I'll be sure to check out these titles a bit more when I have the chance.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2009, 07:11 PM
Kaizoku Kaizoku is offline
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Glad to hear you're on your way to yet another game!

1. Any consideration for multiplayer co-op? Not pushing it, but if at all possible it would round out your gallery of RPG releases (single player in-depth, single player casual, and then multiplayer).

2. Will the graphics be similar to the previous two releases or will you be aiming for something of a higher resolution and higher polygon count?

3. Do you think NPCs could have schedules and behaviors, as introduced by Ultima in the past, or will they be static as in DoP? NPC relationships, reputation, fame, or notoriety considered?

4. Crafting/farming/fishing/mining/9-2-5ing/etc etc etc? Any of that stuff in mind?

You may want to take some time and just crunch through a bunch of video games, new and old, and let that be a good source of ideas. Not much good new commercial stuff out there but lots of old or indie games waiting to be explored!
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2009, 07:13 PM
Kaizoku Kaizoku is offline
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Oh, and as for Titan Quest's hybrid class system, I thought it was interesting enough but didn't particularly like it. If you're going that route I recommend a classless system.
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:23 PM
beefeater999 beefeater999 is offline
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Would it be possible for the game to be heavily based on choices & consequences?
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  #27  
Old 06-25-2009, 12:00 AM
flushfirex flushfirex is offline
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Would it be possible for the game to be heavily based on choices & consequences?
it's a dungeon crawl/action RPG. the c&c is in what build your character is going to have.
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
1. Any consideration for multiplayer co-op? Not pushing it, but if at all possible it would round out your gallery of RPG releases (single player in-depth, single player casual, and then multiplayer).
Part of the reason why we just released a multiplayer expansion for Kivi was so I could do multiplayer in this game. I'm pretty sure it will be co-op based.

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Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
2. Will the graphics be similar to the previous two releases or will you be aiming for something of a higher resolution and higher polygon count?
We might push the res and poly count a bit like we did between DoP and Kivi, but I wouldn't expect too much of a difference. I always try to focus on bringing better gameplay than better graphics.

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3. Do you think NPCs could have schedules and behaviors, as introduced by Ultima in the past, or will they be static as in DoP? NPC relationships, reputation, fame, or notoriety considered?
I have some ideas to make them a bit less static. I'm not sure how much we will push this. I do like the idea of having npcs that are not just placeholders.

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4. Crafting/farming/fishing/mining/9-2-5ing/etc etc etc? Any of that stuff in mind?
I don't know yet. Having some alternate methods of getting stuff than combat would be cool, but I'm not yet sure how feasible it will be.

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Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
You may want to take some time and just crunch through a bunch of video games, new and old, and let that be a good source of ideas. Not much good new commercial stuff out there but lots of old or indie games waiting to be explored!
Don't worry I play a lot of games, read a lot of books, and watch a lot of movies. Asking for feedback from RPG players isn't from a lack of ideas.

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Would it be possible for the game to be heavily based on choices & consequences?
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Originally Posted by flushfirex View Post
it's a dungeon crawl/action RPG. the c&c is in what build your character is going to have.
There will definitely be choices and consequences in your character build, but I think you will also have plenty when it comes to the quests just like there is in Depths of Peril.
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  #29  
Old 06-25-2009, 01:48 PM
Kaizoku Kaizoku is offline
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I appreciate your responses to my questions/suggestions. An indie game to try out to see what a broad gallery of features (most of which are in development) does for a game is Elona. Great dungeon crawler, fairly unique rogue-like, and shows awesome potential: http://homepage3.nifty.com/rfish/index_e.html

One feature I'd love to see in an RPG is more non-combat character development and less tedious combat. A change in perspective from the traditional dungeon hack along with making monsters fewer and stronger would make me a happy gamer.

For example, the traditional hack would feature about 50 generic monsters on a single floor of a dungeon, most or all of which are nuisances at best. Loot makes them mildly interesting but otherwise they are the usual hurdle or hoop-jumping facet that requires only a fraction of our attention span.

What I would like to try is a game that features fewer monsters, some of which wander alone (a minotaur, for example) and others that wander in small groups (like traditional kobolds and goblins), all of which offer very different qualities which call for alternate combat strategies, and greater challenge than the traditional mob (goblins could be individually more powerful and dangerous, but fewer in number) and proportionately handsome rewards for defeating them. And then of course there would be boss monsters, which are fearsome and perhaps unbeatable at certain points in player progress. I like the idea that it's acceptable for a player to face a monster far too powerful for them, and have no means of defeating them for quite some time. It makes the world feel more persistent and real, that it isn't a step-by-step incline of difficulty that holds a player's hands and gives them an omniscient knowledge of how to proceed in everything.

Non-combat character development could be some kind of trade skill (if implemented), for example a mining character will develop strong swings and be able to deal more damage, but will not learn anything of importance in regards to defense and evasion. A character hunting in the wilderness would develop great aim, agility, and stealth, but not be developing the sturdiness and endurance to face greater opponents.

Speaking of hunting, how about eating and drinking? Not making nutrition as rare as many roguelikes, but the necessity of food offers a money sink and a strategy component. A lot of developers (Ultima series by Origin, Eschalon Book 1 by Basilisk) are nervous about implementing food necessity because it has never seen major commercial success (not since Dungeon Master: Skullkeep), but I've always enjoyed the atmosphere of a world that features something so real and basic as hunger.

Didn't even realize you'd released a multiplayer expansion for Kivi! Never played the game due to it's perceived lack of RPG depth (gotta have my excess complexity) but now I'll have second look.
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  #30  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
I appreciate your responses to my questions/suggestions. An indie game to try out to see what a broad gallery of features (most of which are in development) does for a game is Elona. Great dungeon crawler, fairly unique rogue-like, and shows awesome potential: http://homepage3.nifty.com/rfish/index_e.html
I don't think I've ever heard of Elona, I'll have to check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
One feature I'd love to see in an RPG is more non-combat character development and less tedious combat. A change in perspective from the traditional dungeon hack along with making monsters fewer and stronger would make me a happy gamer.

For example, the traditional hack would feature about 50 generic monsters on a single floor of a dungeon, most or all of which are nuisances at best. Loot makes them mildly interesting but otherwise they are the usual hurdle or hoop-jumping facet that requires only a fraction of our attention span.

What I would like to try is a game that features fewer monsters, some of which wander alone (a minotaur, for example) and others that wander in small groups (like traditional kobolds and goblins), all of which offer very different qualities which call for alternate combat strategies, and greater challenge than the traditional mob (goblins could be individually more powerful and dangerous, but fewer in number) and proportionately handsome rewards for defeating them. And then of course there would be boss monsters, which are fearsome and perhaps unbeatable at certain points in player progress. I like the idea that it's acceptable for a player to face a monster far too powerful for them, and have no means of defeating them for quite some time. It makes the world feel more persistent and real, that it isn't a step-by-step incline of difficulty that holds a player's hands and gives them an omniscient knowledge of how to proceed in everything.
We have some of this in DoP and Kivi. The different monster behaviors force different tactics at times especially things like scavengers. We also throw things like unique monster groups at you that can be quite difficult.

I'm going to try to push further in this direction though with more interaction with the world, more teamwork type stuff between the monsters, and varying the monster behavior even more than DoP did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
Speaking of hunting, how about eating and drinking? Not making nutrition as rare as many roguelikes, but the necessity of food offers a money sink and a strategy component. A lot of developers (Ultima series by Origin, Eschalon Book 1 by Basilisk) are nervous about implementing food necessity because it has never seen major commercial success (not since Dungeon Master: Skullkeep), but I've always enjoyed the atmosphere of a world that features something so real and basic as hunger.
Eating is an interesting mechanic. Directly many people really dislike it. It's kind of annoying to have to worry about eating when I'm this awesome hero saving the world. Indirectly though it causes a bunch of interesting things like pushing you forward in the game and taking greater risks because you are low in food. It also adds another important stat and mechanic so your game gets a little more depth, but without much added complexity because everyone already understands eating and starving to death. Eating really needs the correct game to work. I would guess it won't fit in this game, but I am considering it.

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Originally Posted by Kaizoku View Post
Didn't even realize you'd released a multiplayer expansion for Kivi! Never played the game due to it's perceived lack of RPG depth (gotta have my excess complexity) but now I'll have second look.
We just released it a couple weeks ago.
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