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  #1  
Old 01-04-2013, 08:56 AM
interesting interesting is offline
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Default Issues that prevent me enjoying this game

1. The gameplay. It feels like Depths of Peril or Dins Curse. It doesnt feel like flying a ship in 0 gravity space.

2. Ship Speed Cap. A cap prevents me from specializing in speed to reach meaningful speed. The current arbitrary speed cap feels too slow.

3. Minimap. Completelly worthless, an afterthought of any minimap design I have ever seen.

4. Radar. You cant notice it and its not worth investing on it even if you could.
Everything should be on radar. One should navigate just looking through the radar. Radar should provide information of things dozens of seconds before I can physically reach them, instead of "oh, a dot in the minimap and right after, there the ship is". Thats an afterthought of radar design.

5. Exploration is a shore due to the combination of slow ship speed, lack of data on minimap/sector map/quests/objects/subjects and totally wortheless radar.

6. Fog of war serves no purpose, other than uncovering the planets and the location of stargates and jumpgates. That information I should get from radar/diplomacy/rumors.
Nobody is stupid to get in the middle of dozens of enemy ships, because "they have to explore manually" Yeah, right.

7. Lack of proper ship controls with keyboard and lack of proper ship aim with mouse.
The gameplay shouldnt be about pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6.
Why waste the entire genre with left click or keyboard to move and 1,2,3,4 to use skills/attack, when you could have kept keyboard for mobility/defense and mouse for aim/offense.

The ship turn speed, the lack of lateral/forward thrusters. There is no player skill, there is no dog fighting. The gameplay should have been arcade like. The way it is, is boring. Its a waste.

I would get rid of click to move, add more fluidity and mobility to the ship, remove the autoaim from the player and the enemies, add proper balistics/aiming simulation so that the player can actually avoid shots by maneuvering the ship. Allow players to shoot in the direction the mouse is aiming and if the projectile finds an enemy, then its a hit. Any variables from stats apply to the degree of damage done.

Click here, wait, oh the ship is tuuuuuurning... click there, wait... Its a shore. Totally not fun gameplay.

What Drop Operative has that its fun is the roguelikish randomization, itemization and the unique organic world with many layers of cause and effect.

The Diplomacy/AI Strategy aspect is ok, but underused. The player is not properly informed of news, changes, prices, inter relations of things. Everything is simulated alright, but its wasted because the player is not aware of its depth.

If player does a mission, its much more gratifiying if he knows what the situation is before, and how the situation should be improved and why its important, and what effects will it have and so and so. So that player can derive meaningfulness from their own choices and actions.


Another problem. It feels like a single player game. When I play proper sandbox games, they dont feel like single player games. When I play X Universe, or Space Rangers, it doesnt feel like a single player game. Because in those games there are dozen of "Drox Operatives" doing their own thing.

If you added proper AI for non player Drox Operatives, it would multiply the organicity aspect of the game many times, because it would interrelate with everything.

The player feels too lonely and the player feels like the begotten hero of the world. Its only cool to feel the hero when its hard to become one and you work your ass to be the hero. As it stand, from the start to finish the world depends on the player. The world should be designed so that initially the % weight of the player in the world should have a range, from very small to a decent amount. So that the player is insignificant, but if he picks his shot and attacks a specific cargo ship/diplomat at a crucial moment he actually had a heavy % weight on the outcome of something greater than he is, like an alliance/war.



The main problem, however is that the actual gameplay sucks. DIns CUrse, Depths of Peril had the problem of animation, lack of fluidity, etc, but then I thought "ok, now that he is making a space game, he can bypass those limitations and make something with good gameplay, because certainly he wont make the same gameplay, because one game is on land, another is in space and..."

And then we got the same gameplay. A ship on rails, can only go forward or turn and very slowly at that, with no inertia. No aiming. No strafing. What the fricking point of making a space game.

YOu didnt even added proper trading. Buy stuff in one spot, sell it in another. Profit. Thats the basic expectancy for a game on space.

Its ok that the player cant colonize, own, manage, build, etc. Its beyond the scope of the game. BUT TRADING?

All I see was copy pasted stuff from dins curse and depths of peril. THINGS THAT DIDNT MAKE ANY SENSE IN A SPACE GAME.

THings that made sense are missing.

Its fun to aim your own shots and miss and hit and feel responsible and get entertained with your own skill. Here we have what, the explosive barrel. Not enough, the mouse steering and its buttons should be all aiming and shooting and not be bound to movement.

Its fun to strafe shots as well, but that only if you had proper projectiles being projectiles and people having agile enough ships to actually avoid being hit. moving left, right, forward, backwards, faster, slower and so on.

EVEN A TURTLE IS MORE AGILE THAN SHIPS ON THIS GAME.

Then we have a huge fail on the exploration aspect, and presentation thereoff, due to the shore that the gameplay is, and how badly thought out is the minimap, radar, map. A pilot of the level of a Drop Operative should have much more information available to him.

The current pace of exploring, and traveling its not fun.

Trading its not fun either. Going physically from place to place? We did that in the middle ages. In space age, information gets there before we physically have to. Its an unecessary shore to go visit each planet to check the few items they have. A freaking planet has few items.

Its not worth the seconds it takes to go from place to place to check. Its not even worth the "50% movement debuff" of "gravitational pull" shore that is applied to the player.

Few other problems.

Old problem your games have. Each world is not connected. You have to connect each world. We have told you before in Dins/Depths of Peril.

One problem I see now on the design is the scaling.

Kill level 1 mobs, for level 1 quest to get level 1 reward, repeat until you reach level 2, then do the same again for level 2.

There is no point for that scaling design in games anymore, not even for multiplayer games.

If I were to play the game, the least I would do is remove the blatantly artificial scaling, by starting a character at level 75 or so. Thats only so that I can bypass all the cons associated with it.

Sumary.
Im very disappointed. My expectation was "Steven is doing a Space Game? He cant fail now, because the gameplay will be totally different!"

YOU ABSTRACTED THE GAMEPLAY ASPECT OF A SPACE GAME OUT OF IT!
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:47 AM
CautiousChaos CautiousChaos is offline
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Well thought out. I'm disappointed, too. For many of the same reasons, though I'm also very flexible on others.

Drox feeling like Din's Curse in space continues to be difficult to accept. The lethargy of my ships is problematic. And the questing aspect, where I take a question that takes 20 minutes to complete trying to find X, is awful.

I like some aspects of combat. I don't like the fog of war - it's just not interesting. Especially once you get out of the "circle" that is your sector. It just feels honeycombed and awkward.

I still play here and there looking for that compulsion to really get into it comes on.

-cc
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2013, 11:18 AM
droxop55 droxop55 is offline
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The above posts are utterly silly.

Let me boil down this thread:

Quote:
Why doesnt this game play like ________, because all games of this genre should have ______, and therefore you need to add ______ because _____ has had it for ______. WHY YOU NO MAKE GAME LIKE OTHER GAME!??!!?
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  #4  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:19 PM
Roswitha Roswitha is offline
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Clicking to move is one of the least convenient ways to travel. Check out http://www.stephenhornback.com/id98.html for a list of other options.

We really need a tooltip or something that mentions these possibilities.
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:34 PM
Valgor Valgor is offline
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No, it should be the default method of movement.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:47 PM
CautiousChaos CautiousChaos is offline
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I don't think you understand, no offense. Many of the comparisons are predicated on how heavily Drox lies upon Depths+Dins+Kivis and how that influences the opinions of Drox. If that makes you giggle, okay then. Soldak produces innovative and niche titles. That can get a little lost on some people. So let's help the developer by encouraging ideas that open the discussion of conventions and best practices that lead to a larger install base. I'd like Soldak to be with us for a long time to come.

-cc



Quote:
Originally Posted by droxop55 View Post
The above posts are utterly silly.

Let me boil down this thread:

Last edited by CautiousChaos : 01-05-2013 at 11:49 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2013, 05:08 AM
lancefighter lancefighter is offline
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Coming from someone who has had absolutely no experience with soldak's titles outside of Drox, I could agree there are some issues. I would like to take a moment to discuss my feelings on the particular issues mentioned here.

1: You mention "gameplay". Unfortunately, that is a very broad topic. I would disagree that it doesnt feel like flying a spaceship, however, on the grounds of previous games of the genre - EV:N being I assume a main inspiration. Transcendence is also one that comes to mind.
I can not comment on the game feeling like other Soldak titles, because of reasons I mentioned above.

2: Speed Cap is a fairly interesting question, in my mind. There are of course two ways to deal with this - Do we want to let the player stack thrusters and achieve absolutely silly speeds? I personally do not actually see why not. However on the subject of the current cap, there are a few issues. I have found that it is typically somewhat easy to maintain a 200 speed ship using a single engine. Was this by design? I dont know. Should this be possible? I dont believe so.

This also goes hand in hand with other things happening in the game - Should the player be allowed to go faster than mobs? I am of the opinion yes, with the caveat that any 'special' mob with the appropriate 'speed' flag should outpace any human ship.

Overall I feel like the player speed cap could be raised to 300, and nothing else changed, and I would likely be fairly content.

3/4: These two I feel SHOULD go together. The minimap should, I would imagine, be more useful if I have radar. Currently however, both of them are relatively useless. Radar allegedly changes the distance at which things appear.. Well, perhaps I could be able to zoom out a bit more, and more things show up? Might radar possibly improve the distance at which I can see stellar objects? (gates, planets, wormholes) I dont know what the 'correct' answer is, but I feel I can pose possibilities.

5: This is also somewhat part of 3/4, and an extension of two, as you mention yourself. A fast ship with radar modules should be able to scout an entire system quickly, and probably avoid mobs. As it stands, this is impossible due to three things - Lack of speed, Lack of useful radar, and overall mobs being very populous. Another argument for another day however.

6: Fog of war always serves a purpose. Limited information is fairly important in games.In this case, I would say that certain items do not need to be hidden by fog - Planets, for example. To say that 'fog of war is bad' sounds poorly thought out.

7: And finally we get to the core of the problem. I saw a thread earlier about a ship design that seemed to literally sit there and wait for his macro to kill everything. Should that be a particularly valid mode of play? I dont really see why not, honestly. Beams have the advantage of aiming themselves, and always hit, with a tradeoff of straight dps loss over range.

However, I can see where you are coming from. Kinetic weapons in particular feel lackluster, for a few reasons. Primarily, they are automatically aimed. This is an issue because the game somehow cannot hit a ship travelling parallel to me at near max range. There is no relative moment between the two ships, yet it is impossible to hit one another. Secondly, they tend to get blocked by missile swarms. Despite this, I feel like they are still the best weapon system overall - Good, fairly consistent damage, however tends to lose accuracy in larger fights.

Allowing me to manually aim my kinetic weapons would change things slightly. Assuming proper controls were set up for it (ie, I could fire all kinetic weapons at the same time by pressing mouse2), it would likely be overall good for dps. It would give me a less frustrating way to deal with monsters flagged with 'fast'.

Along with that I would probably like to rescale monsters slightly (ie, less monsters, but stronger on average) to make things seem a lot less of a mess in larger fights.

I feel like beyond your initial 7 points, your entire post fell apart into some sort of longwinded rant - So I will mostly ignore it.
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:33 PM
Valgor Valgor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancefighter View Post
[...] Do we want to let the player stack thrusters and achieve absolutely silly speeds? I personally do not actually see why not. [...] Should the player be allowed to go faster than mobs?
I am of the opinion yes, with the caveat that any 'special' mob with the appropriate 'speed' flag should outpace any human ship. [...]
Have you already seen any of these "special mobs" ? There are some that move so fast, the game itself is no longer able to keep up with their movement. They literally "jump" across the screen,
and it's nigh impossible to hit them with anything. If you apply this kind of speed to a player's ship, the game might just become a jerky, unplayable mess for them.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:23 PM
lancefighter lancefighter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valgor View Post
Have you already seen any of these "special mobs" ? There are some that move so fast, the game itself is no longer able to keep up with their movement. They literally "jump" across the screen,
and it's nigh impossible to hit them with anything. If you apply this kind of speed to a player's ship, the game might just become a jerky, unplayable mess for them.
Its interesting you mention this - My primary mode of play has been through multiplayer, as a client. I actually get a lot of jerky barely playable messes when lots of stuff is on the screen at once (this is an issue for fighters, lots of missiles, and in general lots of mobs).

Yes, I have encountered fast enemies. They probably honestly could be a bit slower. I am not sure what their speed is currently, but I am pretty sure it is faster than 300.

However, if the main issue is technical, can the engine not be 'fixed'? Is it not possible to make the game play smoothly at these speeds?
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2013, 04:11 AM
gogis gogis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancefighter View Post
However, I can see where you are coming from. Kinetic weapons in particular feel lackluster, for a few reasons. Primarily, they are automatically aimed. This is an issue because the game somehow cannot hit a ship travelling parallel to me at near max range. There is no relative moment between the two ships, yet it is impossible to hit one another. Secondly, they tend to get blocked by missile swarms. Despite this, I feel like they are still the best weapon system overall - Good, fairly consistent damage, however tends to lose accuracy in larger fights.
I guess you never played past 30, because with introduction of leechers only beam weapons remains as only variant. Which is silly, imo
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