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  #21  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:41 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
I don't think anyone even noticed the skimpy outfits until you pointed them out. I don't think too many people around here see the wizard's outfits and think "there's a sex object".
If you don't notice, then unfortunately it's because you already perceive women as sex-objects, and it takes an independant observer to point out that they're dressed in a highly unnatural manner. This is what I did by creating this thread, by saying that it's "normal" you do not prove that it's normal, you only prove that it's normal for you to see women this way. Which is quite sad.

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I don't think that's true. People honestly don't care about the avatars in a game like this that's barely realistic by today's standards.
That's untrue for me, though, and for many other women I know. My attention is immediately drawn towards a game that is marketed as suitable for my gender. If something is shown to you as something "for you", you will get interested. But if you advertise a game as clearly excluding one portion of the audience, you can expect low numbers of interested people from it.

Your wife's example isn't enough to speak for all women, my brother (35 y.o.) also doesn't play RPGs. He thinks leveling up and assigning skills and attrubutes is too difficult to figure out and prefers simpler games like shooters (in his own words). But I think I shouldn't make general conclusions from this.

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Instead it came across as you trying to impose your personal standards on the dev and on everyone else.
I really think it comes off as such only to you. I speak of nothing else but civility and not insulting each other, these aren't my personal standards but widely accepted standards in human society.

Chumpy, no no, I didn't bring up Dragon Origins as an example of perfection! The reason I brought up Dragon Age is to prove another point, that is, that if you advertise openly that your game is suitable for female gamers they will buy it. The game was advertised as such, unlike many games that never advertise the possibility of playing a woman even if they do contain that possibility (like this one), and one third of DA:O players were discovered to be women. That's the only point I was trying to make, to counter the thinking that it isn't worth to treat female characters equally well as male ones since they won't play anyway (the reason that Shadow mentioned). It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy: you don't expect it, you don't mention\advertise it, and that's what happens.
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:50 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
Had the conversation been started differently though, I think the responses would have been much more positive.
You seemingly think that I insult (?) people here by writing in a slightly hostile manner. I do not see it that way, but maybe for you it's hostile when somebody thinks you're mistreating others, that's how I interprete your words.

But if you understand that insulted people usually feel angry, then I don't see why you cannot understand that my manner of writing is completely normal and natural. Why do you refuse me the right to be annoyed at being insulted, whereas you excuse your own right to be annoyed at being insulted?
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  #23  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:09 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
If you don't notice, then unfortunately it's because you already perceive women as sex-objects, and it takes an independant observer to point out that they're dressed in a highly unnatural manner. This is what I did by creating this thread, by saying that it's "normal" you do not prove that it's normal, you only prove that it's normal for you to see women this way. Which is quite sad.
Interesting. If I don't see a woman wearing a somewhat skimpier outfit (no cleavage, no nudity) as something wrong, then I must see all women as sex objects. So I guess when I go to the beach and see women wearing bathing suits, I must protest and run after them to cover them up, lest I see them as sex objects.

I think part of NOT seeing females as sex objects is allowing them to wear whatever they want, just as men can wear whatever they want (within the bounds of public decency). When I see the avatars of DC (now that I focused on them) I see both males and females who dress with minimal clothes because that is what their culture considers proper, perhaps because of a warm climate. I do not jump to thinking that these people are sex objects.

I'm also curious as to why you don't object to the male mages of DC being portrayed as sex objects? The men are also dressed in an 'unnatural manner' and showing a lot of skin. That doesn't seem to bother you for some reason.
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  #24  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:14 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
You seemingly think that I insult (?) people here by writing in a slightly hostile manner. I do not see it that way, but maybe for you it's hostile when somebody thinks you're mistreating others, that's how I interprete your words.

But if you understand that insulted people usually feel angry, then I don't see why you cannot understand that my manner of writing is completely normal and natural. Why do you refuse me the right to be annoyed at being insulted, whereas you excuse your own right to be annoyed at being insulted?
The very title of the post is hostile. The usage of the word whore, the threat of losing a customer UNLESS the dev makes the change that you want... all of it is hostile.

It's very simple -- a hostile approach begets hostility, whereas a gentle approach gets people to listen. Every attempt so far to respond to you calmly seem to have engendered more hostility from you, rather than a calm, rational response. Don't be surprised then if people don't accept what you have to say.
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  #25  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:22 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Bluddy, I think discussing it with you won't be fruitful. You know well that it's wrong, and you know well that your examples and comparisons are higly misleading. From your previous posts it can be surmised that you argue only because you feel anger at my behavior, something that you think I shouldn't allow myself to feel no matter what.

Well, what can I say about it? I'm no manipulator who could trick you by juggling words in a beautiful way, I just say what I think and hope to appeal to the meaning of my words rather than my manner of writing. And I don't think it's that bad. Not everybody is born eloquent and able to verbally manipulate the emotions of others, and neither I'd be proud of being this way.
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  #26  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:29 AM
Chumpy Chumpy is offline
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Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
Chumpy, no no, I didn't bring up Dragon Origins as an example of perfection! The reason I brought up Dragon Age is to prove another point, that is, that if you advertise openly that your game is suitable for female gamers they will buy it. The game was advertised as such, unlike many games that never advertise the possibility of playing a woman even if they do contain that possibility (like this one), and one third of DA:O players were discovered to be women. That's the only point I was trying to make, to counter the thinking that it isn't worth to treat female characters equally well as male ones since they won't play anyway (the reason that Shadow mentioned). It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy: you don't expect it, you don't mention\advertise it, and that's what happens.
I think there's an interesting discussion to be had on marketing and gender, though, again, I find the male outfit is just as ridiculous.

That said, you might be under a misapprehension about the kind of gameplay involved. Din's Curse features no dialogue options and no real story to speak of - I'm assuming Shadow didn't advertise gender selection because it has no effect on the gameplay experience.

Now that I'm looking at it, the gameplay video on Amaranth Games ( could have featured a male and female character, so I guess there's that.

Mirror, did you take a look at the blog I linked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy
It's very simple -- a hostile approach begets hostility, whereas a gentle approach gets people to listen. Every attempt so far to respond to you calmly seem to have engendered more hostility from you, rather than a calm, rational response. Don't be surprised then if people don't accept what you have to say.
To be fair, there were a lot of responses more hostile than yours. But you two are both being a little confrontational.
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  #27  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:32 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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More, because I think that your last post was written seriously this time.

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Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
The very title of the post is hostile. The usage of the word whore, the threat of losing a customer UNLESS the dev makes the change that you want... all of it is hostile.
Words are descriptive, there's nothing hostile in saying "whore". It's only hostile if I call somebody a whore, but I'm not calling developers whores, am I?! Saying that I won't play such a character is not hostile, either, I merely say what is true!

Quote:
It's very simple -- a hostile approach begets hostility, whereas a gentle approach gets people to listen. Every attempt so far to respond to you calmly seem to have engendered more hostility from you, rather than a calm, rational response. Don't be surprised then if people don't accept what you have to say.
I'm afraid you're really wrong in this. In works for topics that people are interested in and already consider important. For example, if you have technical troubles you can be very polite and get response quickly. But that's because everybody wants others to play their games. The topic we're discussing is very different, because the game developers do not care for it and don't feel that it concerns them or that it's important. I saw others try to do what you suggest and my conclusions were: if you write in a sweet manner about it, you will simply be dismissed! Counter-intuitive, I know. But think of it, and it makes sense. If people you're appealing to think that caring for this topic isn't worth it, and you don't show strong emotions about it, then they think that you too don't care enough. And if you do not care enough, then why should they start caring? That's how it works. But as I said, I'm not a manipulator, probably there is indeed a way to trick others into caring, but writing sweetly is not one of those ways that could work, I observed it and how failed. I write as I think and if it at least draws attention from some people, then it's not a complete failure.
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  #28  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:48 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Originally Posted by Chumpy View Post
That said, you might be under a misapprehension about the kind of gameplay involved. Din's Curse features no dialogue options and no real story to speak of - I'm assuming Shadow didn't advertise gender selection because it has no effect on the gameplay experience.
It's ok, I'm aware what kind of game Din's Curse is

As for marketing, I can't say that Din's Curse is much worse than Dragon Age, which also shows a male protagonist in the videos. The difference is not that much in marketing but that Bioware's games already have a long history of giving people choice. That's why I said that they don't advertise it widely enough (and they do not have to). Their games were immensely popular, so by now many people are simply aware of choice, by word of mouth if nothing else.

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Mirror, did you take a look at the blog I linked?
Yes, thanx. It's utterly depressing to read it, though. And to be honest, I'm wrong audience for that blog, since I already think alike and nothing will change from me reading it, it only makes me feel sad.
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  #29  
Old 03-23-2011, 07:24 AM
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Evander Evander is offline
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I can hardly believe that anyone would see these low-poly, plainly dressed characters as offensive.
Surerly, they are less offensive than using words "whore" in reference to female avatar.

It does offend me, because I don't play male characters any more, and I don't see why my female warrior wearing a plate armour should be referred to as "whore".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
If you don't notice, then unfortunately it's because you already perceive women as sex-objects, and it takes an independant observer to point out that they're dressed in a highly unnatural manner. This is what I did by creating this thread, by saying that it's "normal" you do not prove that it's normal, you only prove that it's normal for you to see women this way. Which is quite sad.
I do. Beign white male of non-gay persuasion, I do perceive women as sex-objects, and I find that natural. So does my many female friends, whom I have been in good terms for many many years (no sex involved). It is natural, that's how evolution made us.

What's best in that, is that I have all the rights to think so, because I am lucky to live in a democratic country in Europe.

I asked my female friend if she thinks there is something wrong with female character outfit in DC, and she gave me surprised look.

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That's untrue for me, though, and for many other women I know. My attention is immediately drawn towards a game that is marketed as suitable for my gender. If something is shown to you as something "for you", you will get interested. But if you advertise a game as clearly excluding one portion of the audience, you can expect low numbers of interested people from it.
You can't please all people in this world. But thankfully we have a choice.
Perhaps yelling at people in forum about what YOU think is the only right way is not that good idea

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I really think it comes off as such only to you. I speak of nothing else but civility and not insulting each other, these aren't my personal standards but widely accepted standards in human society.
Are they?
Here in Europe we have half dressed girls and boys in an advertisements of underwear. We have naked boobs in newspapers and in tv.
Nobody cares. People see nudity as natural, not as sexist.
I do not have a problem with that, and so almost everyone around me.

For that reason I found your posts to really be an attempt to impose your standards on me.
And here where I live, sayings thinks like you did on this forum makes people look funny at you.

Quote:
As for marketing, I can't say that Din's Curse is much worse than Dragon Age, which also shows a male protagonist in the videos. The difference is not that much in marketing but that Bioware's games already have a long history of giving people choice. That's why I said that they don't advertise it widely enough (and they do not have to). Their games were immensely popular, so by now many people are simply aware of choice, by word of mouth if nothing else.
A female gamer can play a male character. A male gamer can play female character. I played female character in Mass Effect, because I couldn't stand that "macho" style of a male Shepard. Female Shepard had good voice, and played way better.
Then again, perhaps it was because of her sexy look...


This is pointless Mirror. Trying to cause panic by creating such threads, is likely to fail. That's because female avatar in DC look ok - not sexist, actually far from that. This problem simply does not exist in this game.
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  #30  
Old 03-23-2011, 07:41 AM
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Maledictus Maledictus is offline
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I'd like to try and offer some perspective here, although it's doomed to fail.

Every person is the result of his/her upbringing and the effect of society and environmental factors. We like to think we make choices and pose well thought out moral statements, but this is simply not the case. To illustrate, a large part of why we think that the naked (fe)male body must be covered up comes from how the church taught us that sex is supposed to be kept out of sight. And that it shouldn't be fun. Rubbish, I say.

When I'm on the couch with a girl-friend and we're watching something that has the naked torso of Tom Cruise in it, she gets all mushy. I find that amusing, and if anything it's a healthy reaction. And why not? I will freely admit that the curvy shapes of a woman are a sight for my sore eyes indeed. That fact in no way makes me think less of her. Think of it as appreciating a wonderful painting. The simple joy of the seeing.
I will admit that marketing in general favors the (overly exaggerated) female shapes, but I can not be held responsible for that. I simply take that at face value. And, not unimportantly here, the male shape is used almost as much to make us all buy stuff.

Games with girls in them tend to portray them as sexy, curvy, smart (I never hear anybody complain about that one), strong etc. It's marketing. People that have gone to school for this think out these pictures and try to reach the biggest audience possible. It's up to the player/buyer to not fall into that trap, if he or she finds this offensive.
I understand that the use of the female form in this (games) can be perceived as sexist, and that women can take offense if they think that the female form is used to attract a certain audience or to picture women as being ... but in the end it's about how you deal with that.

It's been said that men don't find the DC bra outfit offensive because of brain washing (to put it blunt). That may well be true, but society as a whole has taken great strides when it comes to the appreciation of women in general. The kind of thinking that is displayed by the OP (in my opinion) laughs in the face of progress, and sets the clock back in time.

I find no evidence of woman unfriendly material in DC.
I find no evidence of man unfriendly material in DC.

Final thought.
If I were gay, would I complain about mages running around in leather gear or tops that show off my nipples? Ofcourse not, I'd simply enjoy the pun or laugh about the distorted context that I made for myself. How many men have complained about the displaying of flesh in WWF fighting games? None, it's looked at with a sense of humor. When reading fashion magazines, do you feel the need to immediately start losing weight? The answer to that question, whatever it is, tells you something about how influenced you are by what's out there. That in return should put things in context.

I consider myself to be a very intelligent and enlightened spirit and I do not find the use of pixelated nudity (as Larry once put it) to diminish my appreciation of or respect for women in any way.

Lighten up, it's only a (moddable!) game.

Last edited by Maledictus : 03-23-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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