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  #1  
Old 04-28-2011, 05:21 PM
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DeathKnight1728 DeathKnight1728 is offline
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Default Kivi Done Right-Next Game Ideas

Ive played depths of peril and dins curse quite a bit. However, I will be honest that i get bored after i reach lvls 40-higher. The reason that this would happen is that there is no ending that you are trying to reach. Even if i reach lvl 100, ive never essentially beaten the game. The reason that is is that everything should have some sort of an ending. Its how we can say about what we played about.

Ive played and beaten Kivi's Underworld twice, and i might just play it again. The game is just really cool.

What i didnt like was the following-

1)This is the biggest problem with games where there are classes. The problem is that most of the classes dont have the right vibe because you dont get to start all of them from the beginning. I know this is kivis underworld and his story, but the game would have been MUCH better imo had there been all 20 classes from the beginning.

2) There should have been different aspects added to each ability point. For meleers that wield big weapons, strength should give damage and crushing blow, not just damage. For finesse fighters, dexterity should give more than just chance to hit and dodge. It should give either a faster attack speed or critical hit chance. Most finesse characters shouldnt need that much brute force.

Basically each attribute that you can add to should be significant. Strength, the skills and health seemed to be the only ones that most people used. Mana wasnt very helpful (at least for me). And dexterity was very insignificant.

3) The 3rd one isnt as important but might be cool. Instead of each character getting 1 skill and 1 passive, each character could get 2. That would be interesting as there would actually be some character building going on.
If soldak ever made Kivi's done right, thats what i think would be cool. Does anyone else have a different approach, Kivi all the way!!
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:17 PM
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Kruztee Kruztee is offline
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Hey DeathKight1728. Interesting post.

I couldn't stand Kivi's. Played about 5 levels and uninstalled it. But interestingly, not for the same reasons that you seem to have pointed out as it's shortcomings.

Funny thing is, if it had been from any other developer then I probably wouldn't have hated on it as much. I think I might have got Delilah a bit upset one day when I ranted on the forums that I was unimpressed by such a retrogade step in development coming straight after one of the best games I had played in years. STR, DEX, INT, VIT attributes as well as skills and skill trees, loot and combat have all been a part of RPG's for decades. I've played a lot over the last 25 years or so since CRPG's came about. The draw of DoP for me was certainly not that, nor is that the case with Din's Curse. The groundbreaking feature for DoP was the emergent gameplay. DoP featured a dynamic world with options and consequences, really cool emergent gameplay and the ability to play in a world that no-one else had ever seen before (in that each game contained a significant amount of intellegently generated random content). The covenant mechanic was something that just felt totally fresh to me, and kept me playing for a very long time indeed. Kivi's was a static puzzle/action game with but one solution. I couldn't have been any more bored. It was simply taking the same old tried and trusted RPG elements that we had seen over the last few decades and casualising them. I didn't see (and still fail to see) anything in there that would keep me playing.

For me the simplification of the skills system into active and passive and the way that skills randomly dropped as powerups in the levels was the ONLY saving grace for Kivi's. That's the only feature that kept me playing for an hour or so, but even that got old quickly. I also thought that the way classes were unlocked as you found them was a kind of neat trick that many might enjoy but was still genuinely gobsmacked when some who post here even mention Kivi as their favourite Soldak title. I don't mean to devalue their opinions as any less valid than my own, but I will admit to feeling totally bemused in any case.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:55 PM
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DeathKnight1728 DeathKnight1728 is offline
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I originally felt exactly how you did with kivi's-I was waiting for Dins to come out. However, with Dins i felt like there were too many choices (im a powergamer). Whenever i got to lvl 10, i restarted 50 times. I barely managed to get a character past lvl 50. What i disliked was the same thing i disliked with d2, no ending.

With depths of peril, i had much less problems. However, i could barely get past lvl 20 with dop because the monsters were even harder than dins (for a time). The champions were extremely difficult to the point where i couldnt play. That and again, no ending.

I have been having problems with games lately that dont have an ending. I dont know, its been difficult.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:49 PM
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I played the Kivi demo for a little bit, so I don't know how much feedback I can really give on Kivi. The things that turned me off of Kivi were the focus on scores, secrets and colored keys to get ahead. I almost felt like I was playing Doom and it was 1994 all over again. From the little I played, it seemed like an opportunity was missed here.

It's ok for Soldak to do a streamlined, non-emergent ARPG. But then you have to make the most of what you have: the story has to be front and center. I think there was a chance with Kivi to make something like Final Fantasy with an ARPG dungeon-crawl base. In-engine cutscenes with characters talking in speech bubbles (ie. no need for voice recordings) would have been pretty easy to do and could have filled up a sizable chunk of the game.

I don't remember when I was last motivated by getting a high score. Instead of using high scores or colored keys as motivation, you can have players anticipate the next twist in the story. Even better, since players could play with different characters, you could make the conversations change based on which character is being played.

That's what I would have liked Kivi to be like.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:50 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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It's funny. After making comments on the forum, I'm often compelled to go back and test if what I said is true. As a result, I've given Kivi a second chance I wouldn't have otherwise. It's much better than I thought. The main problems in approaching Kivi are your expectations going in. The fact that the game doesn't have real loot or advanced stats like Din's seems like it should deprive the game of its enjoyment, but it really doesn't. You just need to be in a different mindset to enjoy it. In fact it's kind of amazing that it works, but it does.

DC and DoP often (or usually) feel pressured. You constantly need to figure out the best combination of powers to survive. Kivi is more whimsical. It really is like a casual game -- like Bejeweled or other Popcap games, but it has more diversity than those games. Like bejeweled, you can spend some of the time in a semi-automatic state just taking in the scenery (which is quite beautiful -- I'm happy Popcap didn't make this game) and moving along, but then you'll hit short bursts of danger where you have to tackle some challenges and do some more strategic thinking.

I do still think an opportunity was missed to make this game really excellent by emphasizing the story more, and by having basic in-engine cuscenes rather than telling chunks over in prose. Nevertheless, I think I'll pick this one up.

Oh, the other thing that I think hurts the game is having the multiplayer as an expansion. I personally don't mind supporting Soldak some more, but I really think there should at the very least be a bundle with the multiplayer. People nowadays really don't like paying extra for multiplayer.
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