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  #51  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:20 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Maledictus View Post
Funny thing: I could not get into GTA:SA for just that reason. The character is black and I'm not. In fact, the whole scene in that game is black, and I don't like that (can of worms?). I just couldn't connect to that world, that situation.
I'm going to try help with that can of worms there (or open a bigger one instead) I understand what you mean. I also didn't feel like I connected to the 'black crime scene' in the game. I don't particularly like rap, or the glorified drug culture (even if it was tongue-in-cheek), or the constant swearing. I paid less attention to the cutscenes than I did to the ones in GTA:VC, even though SA had a better story. Somehow, the Italian mafia is far more interesting to me.

What I meant is, I had no problem connecting to the character due simply to the fact that he looked black. I don't think it's hard to identify with any character because of external looks whether it be skin color, sex, or clothing. Even if it's initially jarring (or different), you soon focus on the gameplay or the character's experience, and forget what the avatar looks like.

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On a sidenote: I found this more worrying than the whole T&A discussion:
Hehe. I think that's actually the sentiment of the majority of people. People who like to think for fun (even if it's just a little bit of strategizing -- I wouldn't call DC a mentally taxing game in any sense of the word) are in short supply.
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  #52  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:31 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
I think this might be where the problem is. I'm going out on a limb, but I think that from Mirror's perspective, her avatar is by necessity a reflection of her. Therefore, if her avatar is under-dressed, it is as if she is forced to under-dress. It seems that Mirror doesn't separate herself from the avatar. She doesn't say 'it's just a character and it doesn't reflect anything about me'. The alternative option would be to identify with whoever the character is, and just accept the character's culture and setting without judging it with the standards of one's own society, but it seems like she doesn't do that either. She wants to feel like her characters can be her.
It's true for most RPGs, and I'm surprised that you saw it so clearly just from my post. Although in some games like Sam&Max you don't have to identify with the character to feel immersed in the game. It's too unrealistic to be immersed, and its merit is puzzles not immersion. Shooters and RPGs are different in that aspect, at least for me.

But it's not the most serious reason for rejecting badly dressed characters, I can simply see how it influences people around me into perceiving others a certain way. I've had enough extremely negative experiences in life, and it troubles me to think how much worse people who grew up playing such games will be. Games are influencing our perception of the world as much as movies or books or parents. They set the rules, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Evander View Post
Are you going to kill entire european population, just because it's more liberated than you?
I'm puzzled that you bring up liberation. If it was liberation, then men would be half-naked in all games, too, unless you're now saying that in our society only women are liberated and men are severely oppressed and not allowed do undress although they really want to. I think it's quite easy to see how ridiculous this statement is, which means that women being half-naked has nothing to do with liberation.

So ask yourself: why only women? The most obvious answer is because some men who create games happened to perceive women in that manner. In real life nobody would dress so, but when a man creates design for a game, he lets his subconcious image of women get the better of him. And once people saw that it's "allowed", it spread like a wildfire, and we got a huge number of games with such images. And unfortunately others will grow up watching that extreme image openly displayed, and thinking that it's right to perceive people like this in the open. It worsens things even more. It's like a full license to perceive others not as living people with their problems, but as something whose value is only in how it looks. Not only such an attitude leads to lack of respect and inability to perceive people as persons, it leads to loss of emphathy and inability to like\love people. That's what it does for those who have such an image, and who instead of fighting it will enhance it. And for those who're subjected to be viewed that way things are a bit more grim, as they won't find many people with whom it's possible to have a healthy relationship.

To compare my desire for women to be liked as a whole rather than only for a body to fundamentalism is mind-boggling, to say the least. The thing is, some cultures force women to be fully covered and some force them be half naked in games (yet, if this goes on I foresee such fashion in reality in some distant future), but both are "fundamentalistic" in that regard. Because nobody asks women, one culture forces them to be dressed fully because they feel like they "own" their bodies once they get married, another culture wants them all naked because they feel like women are nothing but their bodies. It's the same attitude at the root, although one culture may proudly call itself liberal and democratical, both have big problems.

All I want ideally is to see women who are normally dressed in the mass-media stuff like games, so that people grow up taking them seriously. It's impossible to take seriously somebody who is drawn as a sex-object (even for me, as a straight woman who doesn't have any bodily reactions to that).

Last edited by Mirror : 03-24-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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  #53  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:33 AM
Mirror Mirror is offline
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Maledictus, I had the same experience with GTA:SA, being black would be ok if only I could identify with the local culture and traditions. It felt too alien and I didn't like it. As for my brother, well... You can see why shooters are so popular But it may be just his character. He not only dislikes figuring out attributes and stats, he dislikes talking to characters in games and doing their quests, he just wants to shoot! My friend is similar in that regard: she always skips text in games, I once heard her saying impatiently "c'mon, let me play already!" while she was skipping a dialogue in GTA: Vice City. For both of them story is not a part of the game.

Last edited by Mirror : 03-24-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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  #54  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:59 AM
bushwhacker2k bushwhacker2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
What can I do if this is true? I sincerely believe that until people like you and Evander exist, the world will never be a good place.

As for the point, I made a point and if you complain that it isn't good it's only because you personally dislike it, not because it's objectively bad.
Thank you, I don't personally disagree with your point at all!

I just felt that I couldn't find what you were saying and what we could do about it.

Maybe I'm being a bit dense, but can you clearly state what we can do to help you atm? I've heard the problem but what should we do about it?

---

Btw, sorry if I sounded offensive earlier, I just felt like I couldn't find any way to help you with how you were stating things. I hope I can make a difference though.

---

I've read the latest posts and it seems like the level of clothing is the main factor here (though I had some idea of that earlier), would you like more clothing that covers the entire body?

Slightly unrelated but I read (and heard personally) from some women in the game industry that in their opinions that sexiness or near-nudity doesn't bother them so much as shallow, flat characters that emphasize that they are there for nothing BUT being nearly-naked. I'd love to hear about what we can do to improve things, as I'm not a woman, some of these things don't occur to me (that's not an excuse, just what seems to be the case).

Last edited by bushwhacker2k : 03-24-2011 at 12:17 PM.
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  #55  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:24 PM
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Evander Evander is offline
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Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
I'm puzzled that you bring up liberation. If it was liberation, then men would be half-naked in all games,
to give you game Enslaved as example. One of many. Main character walks with bare chest.

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too, unless you're now saying that in our society only women are liberated and men are severely oppressed and not allowed do undress although they really want to. I think it's quite easy to see how ridiculous this statement is, which means that women being half-naked has nothing to do with liberation.
I haven't said that, that is over-interpretation.
and speaking of being half-naked; oppressive societies do punish women for this, while it is liberal ones where for example walking topless is tolerated.

Your argument is invalid.


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So ask yourself: why only women? The most obvious answer is because some men who create games happened to perceive women in that manner.
Nonsense.
Games are created mostly to suit the taste of potential customers. Where that is for males, there will be, amongst shiny armours and heroic deeds, princesses to admire and rescue, while for females these may be other things, like picking flowers.

That is the decision and choice of the creators, and because games are entertainment, creators are free to put all they want there.

To suspect a world-wide plot of game devs to promote intolerance is crazy.

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In real life nobody would dress so, but when a man creates design for a game, he lets his subconcious image of women get the better of him.
a long pants, a sport bra and a jacket.
In countries that have warm climate, women walk like that since late spring to early autumn. Go and see if you do not believe me.

In real life, a lot of women dress so, they have all the rights to do so, and I respect their decision.

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And once people saw that it's "allowed", it spread like a wildfire, and we got a huge number of games with such images. And unfortunately others will grow up watching that extreme image openly displayed, and thinking that it's right to perceive people like this in the open. It worsens things even more.
"extreme image"? what the hell are you talking about?

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It's like a full license to perceive others not as living people with their problems, but as something whose value is only in how it looks. Not only such an attitude leads to lack of respect and inability to perceive people as persons, it leads to loss of emphathy and inability to like\love people. That's what it does for those who have such an image, and who instead of fighting it will enhance it. And for those who're subjected to be viewed that way things are a bit more grim, as they won't find many people with whom it's possible to have a healthy relationship.
nonsense again.
When I worked in media company, there were 3 women who were above me in the chain of command.
An owner, a department director and my direct superviser.
All 3 beautiful, all 3 intelligent.
As a man, I admired their beauty and complimented them; as an employee, I admired and learned from their experience and complimented them.
There are thousands men like me in Europe, therefore your another argument is invalid.

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To compare my desire for women to be liked as a whole rather than only for a body to fundamentalism is mind-boggling, to say the least. The thing is, some cultures force women to be fully covered and some force them be half naked in games (yet, if this goes on I foresee such fashion in reality in some distant future), but both are "fundamentalistic" in that regard.
-you declare your view using abusive words
- you offend everyone who disagrees
- you deny that other views exist
- you persistent in calling DC female avatar as half naked, against ESRB rating (a very oppresive one btw)
- you wish all those who present different point of view vanished from the face of this planet
- you do not answer to any argument, like that about evolution and freedoms in Europe

That sort of behaviour is what causes some people to detonate bombs in public. This is what caused crusades and inquisition. This is what put women in submissive position in the first place.
It is called fundamentalism.

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Because nobody asks women, one culture forces them to be dressed fully because they feel like they "own" their bodies once they get married, another culture wants them all naked because they feel like women are nothing but their bodies.
"wants" or "allows" them to be naked? there is a major difference in that.

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All I want ideally is to see women who are normally dressed in the mass-media stuff like games, so that people grow up taking them seriously.
as it was said above and in posts before - they are normally dressed in DC.

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It's impossible to take seriously somebody who is drawn as a sex-object (even for me, as a straight woman who doesn't have any bodily reactions to that).
It is absolutely possible, it is just your limitation.

I know women, who are both beautiful, flirty, charming and sexy, and despite that they are taken seriously in their field of expertise.
My friend is a director in theatre, she is more sexy than many women I knew before, she is fully aware of that. And I admire her skill, while watching her spectacles.
Again, your argument is highly offensive to all intelligent, cultural men, beside being invalid.


I am sorry for your poor experience with awkward, retarded men in the past, but that doesn't change the fact that what you do here is trolling, and serves no purpose whatsoever.

Last edited by Evander : 03-25-2011 at 03:21 PM.
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  #56  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:18 PM
ValdainTheKing ValdainTheKing is offline
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If special treatment for women is what you want, go to the middle east. I hear they welcome with open arms.
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  #57  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:00 PM
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Antigrav Antigrav is offline
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The OP has repeated several times that the characters in video games are dressed in an unrealistic, trashy fashion.

Setting aside the idea of realism in a world where a patient god resurrects an offender limitless times, I will say this one last time: the male and female avatars are wearing the exact same thing.

I'm certain that if the complaint were even somewhat grounded in the actual game, if the female townies were always starving and in debt while the male citizens were the ones heroically plunging into the dungeons, sure, she'd be completely right and probably everyone commenting here would be completely with her on it.

But as it is, she is projecting her impression of female exploitation in some other video games quite broadly to say that it applies here. I suggest she actually play Din's Curse, save a couple of towns and get back to us.
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  #58  
Old 03-24-2011, 05:42 PM
bushwhacker2k bushwhacker2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Evander View Post
There are thousands men like me in Europe, therefore your another argument is invalid.
Yeah, you should avoid America, as I live there and am clearly a hateful little baboon! >:O Kidding but let's not write off America because it has a bad reputation, please. (Not pointing any fingers, I just prefer to avoid that train of thought entirely)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evander View Post
-you declare your view using abusive words
- you offend everyone who disagrees
- you deny that other views exist
- you persistent in calling DC female avatar as half naked, against ESRB rating (a very oppresive one btw)
- you wish all those who present different point of view vanished from the face of this planet
- you do not answer to any argument, like that about evolution and freedoms in Europe

That sort of behaviour is what causes some people to detonate bombs in public. This is what caused crusades and inquisition. This is what put women in submissive position in the first place.
It is called fundamentalism.
It does seem this way, that's why I was accusing you(Mirror) of trolling, however unintentional it may be. If you genuinely want to change something because you believe it is offensive or meaninglessly hurtful then I'm all ears.
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  #59  
Old 03-24-2011, 07:52 PM
Max_Powers Max_Powers is offline
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Pardon the interruption, but what is even the point of all this? The OP posted a reasonable complaint that shadow/devs have seen and acknowledged seeing. I am also certain that this will be taken into consideration in the future.

Beyond that, this is a harmless belief that someone has. Why are you all trying to change someones belief when it is not even harmful? Trying to make someone change their belief is an almost impossible, seemingly endless task - even when the belief IS harmful. Why don't all that disagree, and/or maybe even want the characters to be more scantily clad, just post to the contrary of the OP and leave it in the devs hands?

Myself, I am fine with it as it is, but really wouldn't care if the female/male character had more clothes on or not. Ok, I am a straight guy, so I would like to keep enough clothes on the dudes. I don't want to see them fighting(or playing)with THAT sword "Hidden Doom....I stab at theeeeeeee!!!!!!1"
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2011, 09:36 PM
bushwhacker2k bushwhacker2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Max_Powers View Post
Why are you all trying to change someones belief when it is not even harmful?
I think this train of thought is why my attempted assistance didn't really change the flow of the conversation.

I made no attempt to change her belief, I just wanted to actually direct it in a way that would fix something rather than alienate everyone and waste time.

I, at least, want to make something fruitful come of this.

I'm still waiting for Mirror to respond, hopefully in response to me and not random haters.
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