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  #1  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Default Helping the mage class continued

Again, this thread is copied over from the other forum.

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This is in response to points that were mentioned in the armor absorption thread by Crisses, and elsewhere as well.

It seems like the mage classes are still weak, even after having monster resistances lowered. It's not a huge surprise: fighting chars have stronger weapons, stronger armor, their attacks go up in with their stats, and they then have their skill points free to complement their fighting as they choose.

Mage characters, in contrast, need to use every skill point to upgrade their powers, just to keep up with the monster HP. They can rarely afford to diversify their skills. And they have no way to defend themselves.

That's not all bad. I think mage characters are supposed to be tougher to play with. In full RPG games, they're support characters, after all. Still, I think they deserve some affirmative action.

Here are my ideas, in order of easiest to least easy to implement:

1. More skill points per level. They deserve them since skill points are the only way they really fight. I suggest, for starters, a 'Gifted' passive skill for each magic tree giving 33% more skill points. A full mage class will therefore gain 2x the normal skill points (from 3 trees * 1/3), while a hybrid mage class (e.g. ice mage/necromancer) will get 166% of the normal skill points etc. Not sure it's enough, but it's a start.

2. Crisses suggested making cloth armor have more enchantments as compensation for its weaker armor. I think this is a good idea.

3. Buff up defense spells. They don't seem substantial enough.

4. Make spells go up with intelligence. This should be done only after option 1 is used since a) it's harder to do and b) option 1 will already affect mages' power quite a bit.

I'd really like to see at least option 1 implemented.

Baki:

i do not think mages generally need help. all my strongest chars have been mages. Beeing ranged is a huge advantage.

stuns and slows help a mage to defend.

but i would agree that there are only a few efficient ways to play a mage. for Example try this built: Shatter, Cold Mastery, Permaforst. Those are all the skills you will need. Shatter has good single target dps and good aoe. Permaforst to slow nasty monsters. As 2nd Class get a class with +0.8 HP / Vit like Gladiator or Conjurer for Thunderbolt vs bosses (even if it isnt as reliable as it was).

get a staff with crit and casttime and all is fine. get enough int to reach 100% crit and put the rest of your points into vit.

Crisses:

Right there you made our point though. No diversity in that build. Why would this ice Mage need the fire Mage and magician skill trees? The wizard class simply doesn't work! Is there sufficient reason to toss points into Teleport with that build to justify the whole magician tree? So your ice Mage build could as easily hybrid with another tree for armor and/or weapon bonuses because you sure aren't going to focus enough points in teleport to bring the cool down to the point that it helps your character as a defense skill.

To have an effective Mage class you MUST pour all your points into a very narrow niche of skills, effectively making 2 skill trees nearly worthless when skill tree choices are so important (due to cumulative stat bonuses and the importance of which items one can arm in the game).

Even if the build you describe is great there should be more than one working build from 3 skill trees.

Baki:

But that is the same for nearly every efficient built. You focus on the few good things the classes have to offer and ignore the rest.

take a look at the warrior class: it offers so many active attack skills, but only 1 is without doubt the best: cleave. put a few points in that, 1 point in berserk and exploit the animation of cleave.

let me explain this exploit further, hopefully it will get fixed some day...

you are wielding a weapon with 1 second attack speed and 100 damage per swing, no other dmg modifiers from str or skills. -> 100 dps
if you use cleave you will do 150 dmg because cleave has a time value of 1.5 seconds.
but the dmg is alrdy done after ~0.5 seconds. after the dmg is done you quickly do a berserk and the cleave animation will be aborted but the dmg is already done. immediatly cast cleave again -> repeat (you can use programs like autohotkey which help with the timing to optimize it)

that way you can do 150% dps in 0.5 seconds to 2 targets with the best melee range possible. that means cleave with 0% damage bonus is as good vs a single target as a normal attack with 300% dps bonus.

Bluddy:

What you're pointing out is an imbalance in 1 skill, that probably needs to be nerfed/fixed. There shouldn't be one way to a class, and the warrior class in particular offers many different paths. That's the point of having multiple skills.

Valgor:

I'm all for Intelligence increasing the damage of magic skills; similar to how Strength affects a melee character's base damage.

Baki:
every class offers different paths. i am only saying that some paths are better than others and some classes are better than others. having so many possible classes and skills in dins curse comes at a price: horible balancing. dins curse has so many inferior / superior skills that if your target is effiency you will always bring it down to a few skills. sad but true.

Bluddy:

Fair enough. We can try to get it to be as balanced as possible, though. At least that's what we're trying to do. Since you clearly know many of the best/worst paths, you can help out too.
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2011, 09:45 AM
Stardusts Stardusts is offline
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Mage is my favorite class and I have been playing it for a long time in DC. Although I haven't been playing since 1.022 I don't think it affects much with what I have to say about this topic.

First the difference between mage and melee/archer: we do not receive bonus dmg from stat or a huge dmg boost from weapons like you guys so concentrating in one skill is our only way to raise dmg. Splitting skill points in diff spells meaning less damage and we'll struggle just to kill a regular monster.

There is no need for any buff for mages in my opinion, the overall dmg for all spells is substantial to kill things if invested heavily in (which you should do). Above dungeon lv24 you should have at least one equipment with -cast time to survive, its a must for mages (a little set back, but worth it). There are many defensive spells from each skill tree that offers partial/complete protection from harm ( maelstrom, fire maelstrom, teleport, permafrost, etc...). As for armors, we are called glass cannons for a reason. At lv100 my mage constantly faces death (only 19% absorb and like 300 defense) however its the combining use of defensive spells that will get you out of trouble. My mage averages 900kills/death and he has over 100,000 kills (yeah I know I farm too much ).

Now with all that said, as Baki stated before, going Shatter is the ONLY way to play mage at this moment. Why? Because Shatter initial dmg is PHYSICAL dmg which monsters don't have much unlike their elemental resistances. However the most important part that makes all other mage's offensive spells worthless is the resistance buff modifier. +100%, 300% and even 500%??? If you are a fire mage and you face a fire elemental its gg, you won't even scratch it-even if your dmg is doubled- and left with 2 options: switch to something else (which costs time, money and causes frustration) or abandon that town and run into the problem again before you know it.

IMO to make mages playable all the resistance modifier should be removed. Elementals and boss buffs should only be around 50-100%.

Last edited by Stardusts : 02-24-2011 at 09:48 AM.
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2011, 10:09 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Wow great feedback Stardust!

First question: could you please post a couple of mage chars to the repository (either in the old beta forum or just a new thread in this forum)? I'm missing mage characters of all levels for my armor analysis.

Would you agree with my suggestion that mages could benefit from extra skill points? All their power is concentrated there, so more skill points would allow for diversification as well.

I think mages do need to get stronger, because they're dragging warriors down. What I mean is that warriors' DPS gets very high very fast. But in order for mages to be able to kill monsters at all, monsters' HP needs to be limited. If mages were stronger, monsters' HP could also be raised, catching up with warriors' DPS.

Is shatter the only physical damage spell? There should probably be some physical damage component added to other spells then.

Finally, I didn't know elementals were already so hard for mages to defeat. Is that all elementals, or just bosses (if there are any)?
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2011, 10:51 AM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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Stardust: Can you give examples of a "Why bother" for having a pure-caster i.e. a Wizard or a Conjurer. Are your spellcasters hybrid with Rogue/Warrior classes?

I'm playing around with a pure-class Priest as well, which seems much more rounded because you have the Paladin mixed in there giving you plenty of armor/weapon/attack possibilities, passives, buffs + the Shaman's super-buffs. I'm able to improve aim, Champion & add fire to a weapon (empty vials + oil) and carve through critters like butter (appx level 12 in a level 18-20 dungeon on steroids in multiplayer last night). So I'm not too worried about the Priest pure class, but of course time will tell as the character improves.



Forgive a whole lot of opinionated "Shoulding" below.... Everyone has an opinion, I'm flaunting mine. Everyone's welcome to disagree.

The average joe-shmo flesh-n-bone monster should have no better average resistances than an average character of about the same level. Elementals should have more resistance, as should ghosts and other non-corporeals. Bosses should be similar to a truly decked out tank character (or high-class decked out wizard if the boss is a spellcaster), no more no less -- and Boss elementals & non-corporeals should make elementally-based mages run in horror and be a relative cakewalk for your average damage-inflicting decked out brute. These should be the bane of a mage's existence.

It should be as easy for a high level gun-toting mage to clear the average room as it is for a warrior with haste items or whirlwind. Why not? They're ADVENTURERS. Heroes. People sing songs about them. Or given a former life of unrepentant banality, perhaps people feared them. A high level wizard is NOT a 2nd class support character citizen (i.e. comic relief as in the Discworld series LOL). It should be feared as much as a 2-handed-axe toting Conan.

I'm happy to support the Mage Liberation Movement. I think they deserve equal rights to laying waste to the armies of darkness. Are you with me?
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:23 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Here here! I support the movement! Down with those elitist warriors!

Quote:
The average joe-shmo flesh-n-bone monster should have no better average resistances than an average character of about the same level.
I would modify that to, they should have worse resistance than your average character. Because critters have measly armor (20% or about the same as cloth throughout the game), resistance to the elements must be lower to be worthwhile in comparison. Currently it's at about 12%, or 1 resistance unit per level, and climbs slowly with levels. I think it should be even lower to be attractive.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:43 AM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post
Here here! I support the movement! Down with those elitist warriors!



I would modify that to, they should have worse resistance than your average character. Because critters have measly armor (20% or about the same as cloth throughout the game), resistance to the elements must be lower to be worthwhile in comparison. Currently it's at about 12%, or 1 resistance unit per level, and climbs slowly with levels. I think it should be even lower to be attractive.

Mmm I smell the crispy burning cannon fodder already.
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  #7  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:53 PM
alstein alstein is offline
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One reason I like the sorcerer so much is that he has multiple attack types, and great stunning (even with the thunderbolt nerf)
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:26 PM
ValdainTheKing ValdainTheKing is offline
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The King thinks that the long sleeve spellweavers are good as is. I was in my first game last night with a wizard named: valynd. He merely touched his hands with red for a second and any creature he hit lost 1/3 of his life. I cant do that!! I may be the king but there's only so much power a king can have.

There was another guy there who could make my life and his triple. The best spell i can do is make me heal for a little while. That sucks!!

If the king has to brave the beasts of below up close and not complain, why should the spellweavers when they shoot from afar.

Consider this proposition.
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Old 02-24-2011, 07:59 PM
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Crisses Crisses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValdainTheKing View Post
The King thinks that the long sleeve spellweavers are good as is. I was in my first game last night with a wizard named: valynd. He merely touched his hands with red for a second and any creature he hit lost 1/3 of his life. I cant do that!! I may be the king but there's only so much power a king can have.

There was another guy there who could make my life and his triple. The best spell i can do is make me heal for a little while. That sucks!!

If the king has to brave the beasts of below up close and not complain, why should the spellweavers when they shoot from afar.

Consider this proposition.
The one that makes your life triple is a priest spell (Shaman tree, Hardiness), not a mage spell. Unfortunately big difference, and not what we're talking about.

My big complaint is that there seems to be absolutely no benefit to a pure Wizard. I can see a pure Conjurer so you could build up a massive diversified army of lackeys, although your points get so spread out that I'm not sure that works either. But on the Wizard trees (Ice Mage, Fire Mage, Magician) you have no reason for 3 trees of magy-goodness. To be viable you need to pull your points into perhaps 3 skills and pump them as high as you can, so why would one bother being a pure Wizard class?

And what level was that mage at, and the dungeon you were in? Was that the game with me? In which case I was the priest (and the buff was Champion) and the "fire" hands was a necromancer with a dark bolt I think, the dungeon was about level 18, and you and I were both well under the dungeon level. We're trying to figure out whether ANYONE has taken a Wizard or Conjurer to higher level gameplay, or if they're all abandoned in their 20s as essentially unplayable.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:47 PM
Stardusts Stardusts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValdainTheKing View Post
The King... blah blah blah
Maybe the king should try to play a little more to find out about the harshness of deeper dungeons instead of bragging in forum like he knows everything. Oh and try to read some posts first too.

Bluddy:
Right now my lv100 mage is my main with stuff that I don't feel comfortable posting. Plus Id like to keep him unique. I'll level my other one to 100 and post him, along with all armor sets in game (only missing 3 as far as I can tell).
For the extra skill points, Im not sure how it gonna work if someone create a hybrid mage/warrior. It might help beginners but I think its kind of imbalance. Mage is the strongest class actually, sure we can die from 1 hit but we can kill 10 before they can even reach us. Its a fair trade and I would challenge anyone to compete with my mage in killing power (not the max dmg but the ability to clear a dungeon).
There is another physical spell- Bone Shatter which is almost identical to Shatter but no support from Ice Mastery (thus making it inferior in high lv).
The reason why they are hard because they have Incredible Resistance (fire, cold, poison, lighting, etc...) that adds a wooping +500% to their resistance. Hence its impossible to kill a fire ele with fire spells. Mobs (champion and elite) and bosses sometimes have this modifier and you're out of luck if they do.

Crisses:
My mage is Ice Mage/Sorcerer hybrid. I picked the hybrid for the sole purpose of using Thunderbolt. Now it is nerfed I wish I could switch to a full Wizard class. I enjoy mages for the strong and weak points that they have, the satisfaction after you evade death and their destructive capabilities (pure spells) are what I seek. Surely a mage with plate armors have little to fear and there's nothing wrong with that but its just not my type. I might try mage with a leather-wearing class but definitely not mail/plate. Also pure Wizard is very powerful with fire maelstrom, slow from ice spells and teleport. You will be near invisible with the right combining of these spells.
The bane of mage's existence is exactly what I'm against in this post . As a melee/ranged class you can damage anything, now imagine you have to fight a ghost with 99% physical dmg reduction what would you do? Thats the kind of situation mages are in right now.
(btw there is a player named Nobear in this forum who has a lv100 in all classes, haven't seen him for a while though)
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