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  #1  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:26 PM
AnalogKid AnalogKid is offline
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Default Skill point allocation too fluid

I love the change from demo to release that allows people to re-assign skill points. However, I think it's too fluid now, allowing people to specialize in whatever magic is useful for the current enemy, or get weapon mastery in whatever weapon a warrior is presently wielding (for example).

I think there needs to be some way to undo things, and the present situation is great for testing and exploring the various skills, but it doesn't feel satisfying. Some middle-ground options:

- Only allow subtraction while you have the skills window open, once it's closed, the state of skills become a new permanent baseline that can't be undone. This allows fixing of mis-clicks and investigation of "what happens at lvl 2 of this skill?" questions, but otherwise makes character development permanent.

- Only allow skills to be re-assigned once per level. This would still be completely fluid, but would prevent immediate situation-based min/maxing.

- Charge XP to re-assign skills. This makes the most sense to me, since you're changing what you're good at, you should be more "newbie-ish". This should be coupled with the first one, so that mis-clicks can be undone without costing XP.
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:37 PM
Thrugg Thrugg is offline
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Default Skills?

I havnt tested this as yet, but it looked like the cost (in silver) is 3x as much as it was to assign the points. That should (in theory) keep things sufficiently expensive to keep you from willy-nilly completely redesigning your skill choices.

I've probably got got enough money on my priest to undo all the skills I've currently applied, and re-apply them somewhere else. Once. I'd be really poor after that, but then I havnt been spending my money on anything else recently either. I guess it'll depend on the availability of cash later on (too much?), but for now it seems ok.

I'll give it a whirl tonight since I was contemplating re-rolling, but a re-skilling would probably be just what I need.

-Thrugg
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Last edited by Thrugg : 05-09-2011 at 02:39 AM.
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:06 PM
Vas Vas is offline
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yeah it's 3X the cost of what you initialy paid to get the skills.
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:37 PM
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Shadow Shadow is offline
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We tried to make this relatively cheap to fix mistakes, relatively cheap to tryout a couple points in skills, but pretty expensive to respec your character.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:42 PM
AnalogKid AnalogKid is offline
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Ahhh, I didn't even notice that it was costing me money to jiggle the skills. Guess I'm just too rich! But I can see how that would limit some of the games I was worried about. Thanks for pointing out the costs!
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2007, 07:25 PM
Corvus Corax Corvus Corax is offline
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Frankly, I like being able to switch skill points around (with a money penalty). This provides an opportunity for experimentation...without using endless backup saves. I really dislike games where you must, in essence, design your char in advance and meticulously assign each skill point according to some master plan to get the optimum character of each given type (as in Diablo 2, for example). In such games, unless you do lots of initial research on-line, your first character is likely to be mediocre because you simply don't know enough about the game to assign skill points efficiently.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:34 PM
AnalogKid AnalogKid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvus Corax View Post
Frankly, I like being able to switch skill points around (with a money penalty). This provides an opportunity for experimentation...without using endless backup saves. I really dislike games where you must, in essence, design your char in advance and meticulously assign each skill point according to some master plan to get the optimum character of each given type (as in Diablo 2, for example). In such games, unless you do lots of initial research on-line, your first character is likely to be mediocre because you simply don't know enough about the game to assign skill points efficiently.
I hear you. I think it's probably obvious by now from the bulk of my posts that I do like the meta-game strategy of character planning and such, and I prefer if doing so gives an advantage. But I don't think it should be necessary (that's why I posted my thinking on "useless" skills from the demo). I also like the ability to change things, it's wayyyyy better than in the demo where you're just locked in forever. My biggest concern is just that it's too easy and you can change things too often without any real penalty. The money penalty definitely prevents situational changes (cold mage vs. fire elementals, then fire mage vs. ice), and I think that's the most important thing. Personally, though, I haven't found the money penalty to mean anything in terms of character lifetime. Here's an example:

- I started my mage as an earthquake mage concentrating on AoE spells and shotgunning everyone. This worked awesomely well at first. later (about lvl 20) I found that the elites/champs were the only real problem anymore, all the fodder killed by AoE spells were a joke anyway. So I switched to being a bolt mage. Which bolt? I use Arctic Blast right now because of the slowdown effects. But as soon as my Int is high enough, I calculate that the bonus crits of lightning bolts will be better. At lower levels (below about 400 effective Int), it's not. So I'll ride the Arctic Blast till then, and then convert to being a lightning mage.

In the end, I will have had the same character with 3 completely different identities, and no real penalty for switching between them. Again, that's better than being totally locked in, and I understand it's been my choice to switch around, but I just feel the penalty for switching skill points is not big enough (XP penalty!!!!!).
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  #8  
Old 09-26-2007, 02:41 AM
Aeon221 Aeon221 is offline
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Why in the name of all that is holy do you want to be penalized? That makes no sense.

Heck, I wish this game's skill system was a tad more like Guild Wars, so that I could rejigger my skills on the fly without having to waste all my cash every time I do it.
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  #9  
Old 09-26-2007, 04:55 AM
AnalogKid AnalogKid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon221 View Post
Why in the name of all that is holy do you want to be penalized? That makes no sense.
Three kind of inter-related reasons:

- It makes more realistic sense, adding to the ever-elusive "immersion" factor. Super specialist heroes don't go around re-inventing themselves whenever they like. The big bad evil necromancer doesn't ever morph into a firemage for weekend frolics, and neither should your character. It takes time to get good at something, and if you can just mix-n-match skills whenever, I lose some of my enjoyment because it strips away the in-game fiction and throws "THIS IS A GAME TO BE MIN/MAXED" in my face.

- It adds meaning to the skill choices I've made, thus adding an extra layer of meta-game fun in thinking about what combinations might be effective, instead of just trying everything until randomly finding out what works without thinking or caring what the result is. I'm willing to take time to learn the rules of the gameworld, and I assume my character would try to be effective within the universe in which he exists. That's why I like the meta-game, but not random trial-and-error min/maxing. It's fun for me to strategize about my skill selections, but not much fun to just juggle skill points around mindlessly until I get the highest DPS.

- It adds character identity by giving me a reason to choose a style and stick with it. Character "inertia", if you will. This is more touchy-feely-artsy-roleplayish than the meta-game point above. If I can flip-flop and reinvent whenever, it's harder for me to connect with my avatar. If I'm not playing with a firmly grounded identity, then none of the setting, environment, or writing matter and I see the game as just a number-crunching treadmill.

I realize not everyone likes having consequences for the choices they make, and I would never advocate strict "pick a skill and you're stuck with it forever", because it's too easy to have something not work like you thought it would based on the description. But a free-for-all of skill swapping at any time is just ... unpleasant for me. They tried to find a balance to please folks like you and me at the same time, and maybe they've found a good balance, I don't know. All I can say is that I have never spent any money on anything in this game and the tiny fee for juggling skills is absolutely irrelevant to me (although at least the extra cost prevents swapping skills based on the specific monster you're fighting).
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I'm not missing out, on the promise of adventure
I'm not giving up, on implausible dreams
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  #10  
Old 09-26-2007, 08:12 AM
LDiCesare LDiCesare is offline
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I don't swap skills because it would remove what little roleplaying there is in the game. It's actually a reason why I wouldn't play Guild wars: it's not a rpg but a "let's create a new char for this quest" game.
I don't mind the feature here, I just don't use it. In a MP environment, however, I'd be strongly against it as I would have to rig my char to be the perfect 5th level mage, then change him wholly at lvl 12 and change again at lvl 23 just to stay competitive.
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