Skill point allocation too fluid

[Aeon221]

And here's where you lost me. You having trouble connecting with your avatar != make it harder to switch point pools around.

You can just as easily choose not to change your stuff with the current system as with a free refund system. You're already penalized with the up front costs, so it isn't like these skills are free or something. Character inertia is BORING. Switching from lightning to fire to ice based on the exigencies of the situation is where the fun is.

You've already said you don't agree with me, and that is fine. But asking that my fun be removed so that your fun is increased is neither pareto efficient nor fair. Look for roleplaying solutions to roleplaying problems -- don't make the game less fun for the rest of us.

[AnalogKid]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't swap skills because it would remove what little roleplaying there is in the game. It's actually a reason why I wouldn't play Guild wars: it's not a rpg but a "let's create a new char for this quest" game.

I agree completely.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't mind the feature here, I just don't use it.

This kind of thinking is expressed all the time, and I don't agree with it as completely. Of course everyone should play the game in whatever way they enjoy, and that can include choosing not to use features (putting a piece of tape over the monitor to hide a certain quest compass in a certain horrible game, for example). But I'm too much of a gamist player to enjoy that. I'll happily accept whatever a game presents in terms of fiction and rules, as long as they're consistent within themselves. But once the game universe is defined, I take the view (even in RPGs, where creating a role can lead to more enjoyment than number-crunching) that my character, who has always existed inside that universe, would strive to be an effective person. So I game the rules and try to apply any and all strategy I can to be effective. Arbitrarily choosing to restrict myself can increase the challenge, but it's not fun for me because it's not consistent with game-world "reality". One way to say it is that I like to min/max "in character".

For example: If a game's rules present the reality that axes do 10x more damage than swords, I believe that any person existing in that universe who grew up dreaming of being a glorious fighter would have noticed what works and what doesn't, and so would be using axes. I wouldn't make a sword wielding fighter (thus handicapping myself arbitrarily) just to be cool, because I don't want to play an idiot character that doesn't notice the world in which he lives. I would create an avatar that has an identity consistent with wanting to be a famous fighter. That's why, imo, options that are "different but equal" are always better than options that are obviously more/less effective. Thus the art of game balance (think the 3 races in Starcraft).

Lots of games have cheats that give players gold/health/whatever. It's right there in the console easy as can be, just go ahead and use it. But most players don't because even though they want to "win", they want to do so on the game's terms just like I do. Otherwise, why play that particular game? That's why it's important that the game's rules be challenging and "fun" on their own merits. Chess where any piece can turn into any other piece just before moving is a lot less restricitive, but I expect it would be a lot less fun, as would Tetris where you can choose which shape you're going to get next, or an RPG in which characters can have 100% in all skills (all at the same time, or by swapping skills at whim).

Anyway, @Aeon, you needn't worry about me trying to take away others' fun. I'm just one guy who's contributed a whopping $60 to Soldak. You could ask Steven, but somehow I doubt that qualifies me for design credits.

[Corvus Corax]

I really see no reason to swap skills to defeat some tough boss, as there's no storyline where a boss can block progress. Last night, I ran up against a boss with an attack/defense combination that made him literally impossible to kill by my char and any covenant-member combination I could put together (I understand these boss combinations are random, so you can get toughies like this). After trying a few times (and getting killed), I simply retrieved my soulstone, declined the quest, and moved on to the next one.

When I started my warrior char, I had in mind a guy that could use a one-handed sword and equip a shield. Unfortunately, all I seemed to find for the first 15 levels or so were high-end two-handed axes.....so I raised axe-mastery 3 points. Day before yesterday, however, I found a terrific unique one-handed sword that delivered almost as much damage as weaker two-handed swords. I immediately switched my points to sword-mastery and am now as happy as a clam. If I couldn't switch points, I'd have to start a new warrior, switch the sword over to him, and play him till he leveled up enough to use the sword.....a pain to be sure.

[LDiCesare]

Character inertia is BORING. Switching from lightning to fire to ice based on the exigencies of the situation is where the fun is.

a pain to be sure.

We disagree. I think it is not boring, but interesting, to have character inertia. I think switching skills based on the situation makes no sesnse because you could replace all skills by a single level figure and give the character all the skills based on the current level. By allowing to change skills at any time in a rpg, you are basically removing all skill point allocation from the game and turning it into a 1st edition D&D clone, where only level matters.
This means removing choices from the players, and makes the game totally uninteresting for me.

As for not sticking to sword-wielder because I don't find swords: I want the decisions I made to count in the world. If I don't take a quest and the town is attacked because of that, it is great. It is equally great that I should be unable to wield a sword if I didn't learn to.

And you will find a sword or axe or club way better than the sword you've found already in maybe 3 or 4 levels. You will then switch to club or whatever. If you do so, what is the point of having axes, swords and clubs in the first place? There is no reason to have different skills if you can switch from one to the other whenever you like. This actually makes the game way poorer, and would show immediately in MP.

[Corvus Corax]

I'm not much into immersive rpg'ing. I'm more interested in producing ueber killing machines. I won't be switching to that super club because my char is now competitive....I can fight and beat the other covenants with the warrior (probably more because I've learned the game rather than because I found the super sword)....so I'll stick with swords. Now that I've got two L20+ chars, I'm able to shift good stuff between them and their various covenant members (that super club you mention will go to my priest). I've got some synergy going.

When I started with my first character, a warrior, I couldn't get any place because (a) I didn't know the game and (b) I couldn't find a decent sword. A warrior can use any weapon; he's just better if he puts mastery points into it. As for mp, not an issue for me, as I don't multi-play.

In retrospect, I'll admit that, knowing what I know now about the game, I could have just as well made do with swords till the right one came along. The warrior, however, was my test-bed character for the game. I was more interested in seeing what the game could do, rather than role-playing. In fact, I stopped playing the warrior at level 10 or so and started a priest character which I ran up to L18 before switching back to the warrior (and finding the super sword shortly thereafter). Now I alternate between the two characters.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally Posted by AnalogKid

But a free-for-all of skill swapping at any time is just ... unpleasant for me.

Fine, you can just not do that. Problem solved.

[Corvus Corax]

[quote=Corvus Corax;784]I really see no reason to swap skills to defeat some tough boss, as there's no storyline where a boss can block progress./QUOTE]

Just a little correction: In the last few days, I've become aware that there IS a main storyline. I'd noticed that some of the quests have lots more text than most.....but being in a big hurry to do quests, I didn't really read these thoroughly. I'm now actually following the storyline quests. Very nice. Someone put a bit of work into this aspect of the game.

[Delilah Rehm]

Thanks Corax! The storyline is in there for those who love them, but as you've noticed, you don't have to pay attention to them. Same with all of the town npc chatter. They actually play out a little drama as you level between 0-25. Also... there might be a little secret involving the storyline... perhaps the town npcs might mention it... perhaps there might be clues in one of the stories. I'll never tell.

One of the hard things in making a game is to make it appealing to as many players (rpgers in this case) as possible. Well.... that's even harder than it seems. At first, you couldn't refit skills at all. The ability to remove skills with a cash cost was added to broaden the appeal. Some don't want it. Some want it with no cost. Most seem to like this ability as it is. It's one of those cases where you can't make everyone happy no matter what you do. I hope everyone can enjoy the game even if it isn't exactly what they would choose in design.

[Asmodean]

I, for one, support the ability to swap skills on-the-fly (albeit at a price), for the same reason that has been said above.

Warriors in particular find different weapons, and quite often get streaks where they get nothing but worthless green items followed by a yellow or a purple two-handed axe. I actually had it happen to me (ok, it was a very nice orange two-hander). Had I not been able to take points out of sword specialization and move them into axe specialization, I would've been one very pissed off warrior, indeed!

[Corvus Corax]

Originally Posted by Delilah Rehm

Thanks Corax! The storyline is in there for those who love them, but as you've noticed, you don't have to pay attention to them. Same with all of the town npc chatter. They actually play out a little drama as you level between 0-25. Also... there might be a little secret involving the storyline... perhaps the town npcs might mention it... perhaps there might be clues in one of the stories. I'll never tell.

One of the hard things in making a game is to make it appealing to as many players (rpgers in this case) as possible. Well.... that's even harder than it seems. At first, you couldn't refit skills at all. The ability to remove skills with a cash cost was added to broaden the appeal. Some don't want it. Some want it with no cost. Most seem to like this ability as it is. It's one of those cases where you can't make everyone happy no matter what you do. I hope everyone can enjoy the game even if it isn't exactly what they would choose in design.

Yes, I've noticed that the townspeople make cryptic remarks about one another. I'm careful to always check out their comments now because I'm curious to see where this is going. Are these just expressions of petty jealosies, groundless suspicions, and momentary infatuations.....or is something deeper going on?

The ability to recover skill points is a good idea, IMO. Those that want to avail themselves of this feature can, those that don't can simply ignore it.