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  #31  
Old 11-07-2015, 04:29 AM
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DanSota DanSota is offline
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Upon further reflection of the Hunter skill Split Projectiles, I'm starting to think its too powerful in that a max level character (1169 skill points) can get it to level 40, which is 400% extra projectiles. With enough mana, you can lock even the toughest bosses into place with Shock Bolt, leaving them helpless if there aren't other monsters around to interrupt.
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  #32  
Old 11-11-2015, 07:53 AM
Throwback Throwback is offline
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I'm on about my 5th pass of trying to play a defender riposte build, currently level 11. In the past I have crashed & burnt at about level 22.

With a grain of salt given my character level, I think there are couple of obvious issues with some of the important skills for this build:

Shield bash: This skill is designed to let low-DPS warriors (ie sword & board) fight Spellcasting bosses - and it works great for that purpose. Unfortunately you have to keep points in it to prevent it becoming worthless, heavily gimping your DPS when you were already a long way behind due to the 1-hander. Furthermore, the 10s cd means it is no good for taking out multiple big sisters/fire throwers/dark elf zombies etc - something that 2-hander builds struggle with less with due to high spammable single-hit damage (and DPS overall). I would add that I personally wouldn't like it to be a DPS skill - that's what the sword is for after all.

sword & board needs a clear goal - is it going to be the same DPS as 2-hander builds by virtue of spending less on defence skills due to higher natural defence, or is it going to be something else? At the moment it is trying to be utility/tank with some situational advantages over 2-handing, but falls down because it cannot tank elemental damage dealers and cannot out-utility them either. I believe it is the worst build to play against non-physical damage due to a combination of very low damage and total lack of mitigation.

I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has managed to get sword & board riposte focused warrior off the ground.

Last edited by Throwback : 11-11-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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  #33  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:47 PM
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Tuidjy Tuidjy is offline
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All of my warriors use two-handed weapons 90% of the time, and switch to shield and sword when they need to, i.e. when they need extra defense. I invest very few skill points in shield related skills - just enough to disrupt the enemy or get the low hanging bonuses. Damage comes from my sword.

But I do not see why you keep talking about DPS. Warriors do not have the skills that only increase DPS for two-handers, and depending on what swords you find, your one-handers may be a good match for the two-handers. I use a two-hander for its reach, not for its damage.

As for enemies who deal non-physical damage, they've always been the armored warrior's curse. There are a few things to do about it:
- kill the enemy before he has a chance to unleash his attack
- dodge the non-instant projectiles, like arrows, bolts and ball lightning
- move out of the way, once truly scary elemental damage settles and becomes environmental
- find clan members who have protection spells, and use them when needed

A warrior does not have to choose between two-handed and sword&board. A demon hunter does, but he has the skills to stack serious resistances.
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  #34  
Old 11-11-2015, 07:56 PM
Throwback Throwback is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuidjy View Post
All of my warriors use two-handed weapons 90% of the time, and switch to shield and sword when they need to, i.e. when they need extra defense. I invest very few skill points in shield related skills - just enough to disrupt the enemy or get the low hanging bonuses. Damage comes from my sword.

But I do not see why you keep talking about DPS. Warriors do not have the skills that only increase DPS for two-handers, and depending on what swords you find, your one-handers may be a good match for the two-handers. I use a two-hander for its reach, not for its damage.

As for enemies who deal non-physical damage, they've always been the armored warrior's curse. There are a few things to do about it:
- kill the enemy before he has a chance to unleash his attack
- dodge the non-instant projectiles, like arrows, bolts and ball lightning
- move out of the way, once truly scary elemental damage settles and becomes environmental
- find clan members who have protection spells, and use them when needed

A warrior does not have to choose between two-handed and sword&board. A demon hunter does, but he has the skills to stack serious resistances.
You're right, and it's true I could build for 2-handed and only switch into 1-handed for shield bash. However this is a thread that is at least partially about making more builds viable.

Currently I don't feel a build that focuses on putting points into sword & shield skills (for e.g. the defence passive which iirc only works with shields and imho would be fairly pointless without a shield anyway) with a goal of eventually making strong use of riposte is viable. The gut + ground strike build might be, I haven't really tested it.

Whether Shadow wants to make it stronger is up to him, but personally I love sword & shield builds.
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  #35  
Old 11-11-2015, 10:14 PM
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Tuidjy Tuidjy is offline
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I guess I was not clear. A two-handed user, a magic user, any character who wants to be viable has to spend resources and points in all items and combat skills - the weapon damage skills, the weapon itself, and the main damage dealing skill.

Why do you expect that the shield user will be any different?

If you want to keep shield bash viable, you will have to keep investing in it, the same way a whirler invests in Whirlwind. If you want to have multiple viable skills... well, it is a luxury that few builds have, unless one of the skills feeds off another - for example, you can keep a reaver/weaponmaster flame strike at the entry level, but that's because two-handed mastery, sword mastery, arm mastery and the weapon damage itself feed into it.

Shield bash is a damage skill which has a status effect attached to it. You can pump the damage without investing in it, because it feeds off weapon damage. But if you want the effect, you need to put some points. Now, it may be that the skill is too expensive in the long run. A good argument would be: (note that I have NOT tried this, and the numbers below are random)

In order for my Shield Bash to be relevant against level 40 enemies, I would have to have it at level 10, which would require 55% of my total skill points. This is obviously too much, so please increase the effectiveness.

Now if that number is really 55% you have one Hell of a point. But if it is 5%, you do not. So, do the testing, and let us know how much of your skill points pool you'd need to expend to make shield bash relevant. Then the developers would be more likely to listen.

-----

I actually took a second look at the relevant skills. You are complaining that you cannot keep viable the STUN effect of two ACTIVE skills which BOTH feed off physically damage. No build which duplicates functionality in such a manner needs to be particularly effective, as far as I am concerned. But you have made me interested enough to try a shield user next time one of my characters bites the dust.
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Last edited by Tuidjy : 11-11-2015 at 10:22 PM.
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  #36  
Old 11-13-2015, 04:58 AM
Throwback Throwback is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuidjy View Post
I guess I was not clear. A two-handed user, a magic user, any character who wants to be viable has to spend resources and points in all items and combat skills - the weapon damage skills, the weapon itself, and the main damage dealing skill.

Why do you expect that the shield user will be any different?

If you want to keep shield bash viable, you will have to keep investing in it, the same way a whirler invests in Whirlwind. If you want to have multiple viable skills... well, it is a luxury that few builds have, unless one of the skills feeds off another - for example, you can keep a reaver/weaponmaster flame strike at the entry level, but that's because two-handed mastery, sword mastery, arm mastery and the weapon damage itself feed into it.

Shield bash is a damage skill which has a status effect attached to it. You can pump the damage without investing in it, because it feeds off weapon damage. But if you want the effect, you need to put some points. Now, it may be that the skill is too expensive in the long run. A good argument would be: (note that I have NOT tried this, and the numbers below are random)

In order for my Shield Bash to be relevant against level 40 enemies, I would have to have it at level 10, which would require 55% of my total skill points. This is obviously too much, so please increase the effectiveness.

Now if that number is really 55% you have one Hell of a point. But if it is 5%, you do not. So, do the testing, and let us know how much of your skill points pool you'd need to expend to make shield bash relevant. Then the developers would be more likely to listen.

-----

I actually took a second look at the relevant skills. You are complaining that you cannot keep viable the STUN effect of two ACTIVE skills which BOTH feed off physically damage. No build which duplicates functionality in such a manner needs to be particularly effective, as far as I am concerned. But you have made me interested enough to try a shield user next time one of my characters bites the dust.
Sorry it took me a while to reply - been busy.

I *am* investing into shield bash to keep it viable, and I still only get a 10s cd damage skill. I want to go into riposte, so 2 damage skills seems enough to me. I have tried builds with a proper damage skill such as powerful blow or gut - but then I have no points for defence (to get riposte up & running) and I just feel I should be using a 2-hander.

Some skills should be better as a shield user, just like damage skills are better with a 2-hander (higher base damage and it reduces the attack speed time). Shield bash is obviously better but is god-awful against multiple spellcasters, which are a nightmare for low DPS builds - and riposte is not going to do anything against them, that's for sure.

To summarise, riposte is useless against spellcasters, and so is everything else defender related, except shield bash - which has a 10s cd.

Some other random, possibly unrelated points:
- to make use of riposte, it helps to have decent auto-attacks. The sword passive is even more great because it adds block/parry, which is direct synergy. To make use of good auto-attack, gut doesn't synergise and multistrike cripples you (which would otherwise be a cool way of buffing shield bash).
- that said I am going to try out gut to get me to riposte if this build fails. Gut is clearly a skill that goes well with 1-handers. I am very worried about it because shadow took away the 'DPS increase increases per level' part of the skill.
- as previously detailed, ground strike is awful for this build.
- there are 4 'classes' of mobs I worry about - physical melee normal, magic ranged normal, magic ranged bosses, physical melee bosses. Riposte/shield slam build is fine for all of these except magic ranged normal. I'm searching for a solution.
- I have tried various builds but my current sword passive + adrenaline + shield bash + (eventually) riposte is the best so far - I have been able to ignore intelligence, giving me an early boost.
- I'm glad you're going to play some sword & board! I hope you can come up with a good build.

Last edited by Throwback : 11-13-2015 at 05:06 AM.
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  #37  
Old 11-13-2015, 05:21 PM
Throwback Throwback is offline
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After rereading tuidjy's post and looking closely at the riposte skill, I feel like I've just had an 'aha' moment. All the defender's skills can work well with Multistrike, which is potentially really amazing.

I'd like to retract all my thoughts on defender balance until I have done more experimentation.
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  #38  
Old 11-17-2015, 12:56 PM
jimoc jimoc is offline
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Please change the Stalker timeout back to 30 seconds or reduce the timeout with more levels spent on Stalker.

I love the Stalker/Thief hybrid in Din's Curse and got a bit of a shock when I tried to use the same hybrid in Zombasite and discovered the 2 minute cooldown.
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  #39  
Old 11-24-2015, 07:39 AM
Throwback Throwback is offline
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Multi-strike does not help sword & shield builds at all.

I finally saved enough points to buy it on my gut-focused warrior, excited at the prospect of being able to apply gut to multiple enemies at once. That's the point of Multi-strike, right - cripple your physical damage in exchange for applying secondary effects to multiple enemies? Sadly, no - the point is only to cripple your damage.

I imagine the thought behind this skill is something like invest in a single active skill for 1 point, then max out multi-strike + a weapon passive. This may in fact be do-able with a 2-handed weapon, I haven't tested it.

I suggest the skill also applies secondary effects to all targets in range. I don't know if it would result in insane overpowered stunlock builds relying on Block and Riposte, but I imagine the very slow DPS those builds put out mitigates this (and it is still very weak to ranged magic damage).

Finally, gut seems awful to me. DoT is fine and it suits a sword & board warrior who can sit in the middle and get some mana back while gut does the killing, but the damage increase of a flat 2 DPS per level feels way off, especially given the incredible synergies of % based builds in higher levels. I had felt it would be ok if multi-strike applied gut to all enemies in range, but even then you are looking at a rough 8DPS increase per level in a good situation. I realise the player can still attack after using gut, so there are some tradeoffs that have to be made with damage - and to be honest I'm not sure how to fix it. I thought the Din's Curse levelling where the DPS difference between levels increased gradually was a good start.

Last edited by Throwback : 11-24-2015 at 07:45 AM.
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  #40  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:21 AM
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Shadow Shadow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Throwback View Post
I finally saved enough points to buy it on my gut-focused warrior, excited at the prospect of being able to apply gut to multiple enemies at once. That's the point of Multi-strike, right - cripple your physical damage in exchange for applying secondary effects to multiple enemies? Sadly, no - the point is only to cripple your damage.
Multi-strike doesn't decrease the damage of the main attack at all. It just doesn't apply the full amount to the other enemies (at least at skill level 1).
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