The Balance Thread

[alstein]

Right now: by class. Mostly listing skills I never use, and not listing stuff I think is effected by your other changes

This is just off the top of my head.

Weaponmaster: just Adrenaline. Recharge time is too long, maybe increase duration by level, or make it a flat weapon speed increase (that's small)

I think all the shield bashes are underpowered (defender/paladin/warden)

Thief: Dagger mastery should get the combat speed boost from Magitek's mod

Trickster: Increased Stealth should increase Escape notice.

Paladin: I think Zeal should do something different.

Shaman:
Champion has too long a recharge time, should reduce by level
Divine Intervention seems terrible, should be a percentage heal I believe
Suggestion: give the Shaman a Staff mastery skill.

Magician:
Blinding Flash needs to be stronger
Arcane Swarm needs to be stronger
Suggestion: Arcane Blast can lower an enemy's magic resistance
Suggestion #2: Arcane Drain can restore your life when it's used, duration should increase to 10 seconds.

Archer
Fast Draw should be a weapon speed increase

Druid
Mana Regen should last for the full 5 mins like Magitek's Mod

Conjurer
Warlock
Shadow Claw should restore life like in Magitek's Mod
Curses should gain range with level

Sorcerer:
Ball Lightning/Lightning Swarm seem too weak.
Chain Lightning might also use a boost

Reaver:
Charge seems very weak
Rampage needs a little more time boost per level
Wampir Blood should be a toggle (have it reduce mana or even hp regen when active)

warden:
Shield skills are weak
Wards might need a boost also.
Banish is likely overpriced

Demonologist:
Inferno needs a boost
Blood Rage seems overpriced
Demonic Control I never use- seems way too situational.

[Bluddy]

Great. I noted those down -- I'll check them out when I'm through with the mage skills. The main ones on there that I'm already changing are the lightnings. Anything you think is too strong/dominant?

[alstein]

I honestly don't worry about things that are too strong, I'd rather buff things up to that level. I really don't have any complaints on things being too strong.

[Bluddy]

I was just looking through some files in the expansion, when I suddenly noticed that the expansion makes legendary difficulty harder! That means I have to adjust my spells to suit the new difficulty. People without the expansion will just have a somewhat easier time in the endgame.

[Bluddy]

Shadow, would it be possible to add more commands like DynamicStatMultPowerNeeded and DynamicStatMultSkillDamage, except that it would show the calculated damage numbers (min and max) and mana instead of percentage increase? I'm adding damage and power non-linearly (to keep up with the levels), but it all appears as % increase, making it hard to understand the real impact.

A nonlinear way to add to AbsorbDamage would also help with making Holy Shield able to keep up with the game.

[Bluddy]

OK -- I've finished re-balancing the fire mage (and only the fire mage so far). I'm not sure if my mana values are exactly right, but you should now make sure to watch your mana -- upgrading spells may sometimes make them LESS effective since you can use them less.

If you're using a high level mage, you may want to subtract skill points and place them differently. In general, more powerful spells will need less upgrading than less powerful spells. Also, you should be able to build up several skills (4-6) without too much of a problem.

Now that each skill is viable, I had a tough time deciding what to do with fire mastery. I can't have it boost damage by percentage -- that'll throw off all the damage curves. What it does instead is reduce mana costs. It also affects the fire elemental and flame blade.

Please note that I changed the name of the mod from assets004.zip to assetsbal.zip (as in balance). You can delete the old assets004.zip.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

OK -- I've finished re-balancing the fire mage (and only the fire mage so far). I'm not sure if my mana values are exactly right, but you should now make sure to watch your mana -- upgrading spells may sometimes make them LESS effective since you can use them less.

Ok, one thing I notice is a strange low-level jump in the mana costs i.e. I'm 4th level and:

Fire Sheild 1 = 12 mana.
Fire Sheild 2 will cost 22 mana! (10 point jump, almost double?)
Fireball 1 = 10 mana.
Fireball 2 = 16 -- that seems OK, perhaps...
Firey blast 1 = 8
Fiery blast 2 = 12 --25% increase -- a little steep for 4th level...

These SAY there's a 3% raise in mana cost in the description, but that's by far not the truth False advertising!

Now, I didn't run out of mana too frequently, but I also avoid being headstrong and avoid some battles or put them off. I have 118 mana at 4th level -- those fees seem to get steep pretty fast, so of course I shied away from raising the spells to level 2 (so I don't know what Level 3 would cost mana-wise....). I didn't die, not unusal in such a low level...

One thing I noticed is that I can't really tell whether Fire Mastery works when every spell/skill is at 1. Since it doesn't modify the mana cost in the description, I wasn't sure really how to test what the mana cost really is...Also if Fire Mastery is only for resistance AND reducing spell costs, perhaps Fire Sheild and other non-damage fire spells would be affected?

I got up to 7th level before I stopped for the day. I was able to diversify nicely and picked Teleport (which is one of the more balanced spells available). But one can do that in the original game at 7th level. So I'll try again soon... just have a busy week and need to do lots of work (and right now, I need to sleep).

[Crisses]

Having not played the endgame, another factor to account for, at least for non-area-effect spells is: Are there simply more creatures, more dungeon mods, or more champions/elites/uniques at the higher level end of the game -- or is it just the same numbers and same chance of buffs, just different difficulty levels per-monster?

If at level 1 I walk into a room and there's maybe 5 critters...
at level 25 I walk in and there's 10
at level 55 I walk in and there's 25
at level 100 I walk in and there's 75
...then the overpower both in DPS and spells (perhaps even area of effect) NEEDS to escalate. It's not just a factor of each monster's HPs but the cumulative HPs of the monsters one should kill before one will be killed.

I'm tired, I may not be making any sense

[Bluddy]

Thanks for testing Crisses!

Originally Posted by Crisses

Ok, one thing I notice is a strange low-level jump in the mana costs i.e. I'm 4th level and:

Fire Sheild 1 = 12 mana.
Fire Sheild 2 will cost 22 mana! (10 point jump, almost double?)
Fireball 1 = 10 mana.
Fireball 2 = 16 -- that seems OK, perhaps...
Firey blast 1 = 8
Fiery blast 2 = 12 --25% increase -- a little steep for 4th level...

Right. I don't know if I got the mana right yet, as I said, but basically more powerful spells will go up in mana usage faster. This should hopefully encourage more diversification.

These SAY there's a 3% raise in mana cost in the description, but that's by far not the truth False advertising!

Yeah this is a problem in using the boosts as I am. To make both damage and mana non-linear, I'm using the same commands that the masteries use to modify percentages, but I'm also adding linear amounts. Unfortunately this makes damage and mana display in a way that's not clear. So the extra 3% is added to the regular mana cost, which is also going up.

Making the mana non-linear lets me target spells for a specific number of levels (e.g. 20). Usually, lighter spells are targeted at 20 levels, and the heaviest spells are targeted at 12. Go past those levels, and the spell uses considerably more mana (in return for considerably more damage). Making the damage non-linear allows to keep up with the monsters, while also preventing the mage from overwhelming monsters in the early to mid-game.

What I'd really like Shadow to do, is modify the Skill class in the code somewhat, so that there's an inflation factor for skill damage before it's displayed as numbers, as well as after. I'd also like the same for power usage. This would make non-linear skills still display their damage & power normally, while only boosting skills would have a percentage display.

Now, I didn't run out of mana too frequently, but I also avoid being headstrong and avoid some battles or put them off. I have 118 mana at 4th level -- those fees seem to get steep pretty fast, so of course I shied away from raising the spells to level 2 (so I don't know what Level 3 would cost mana-wise....). I didn't die, not unusal in such a low level...

I need to get a sense of how many spam fire spells people need to fire off at a time to survive. That would really help with mana balancing. The big spells like maelstrom are going to be very expensive mana wise -- you only need a couple more small spells to kill off a whole bunch of monsters. Plus it makes the usage of the big spells tactical. You have to think when to fire it -- fire at the wrong time, and you wasted a big chunk of your mana. Of course you can always use mana potions, from which you get a huge bonus as a mage.

One thing I noticed is that I can't really tell whether Fire Mastery works when every spell/skill is at 1. Since it doesn't modify the mana cost in the description, I wasn't sure really how to test what the mana cost really is...Also if Fire Mastery is only for resistance AND reducing spell costs, perhaps Fire Sheild and other non-damage fire spells would be affected?

I hope it works -- it should work. If your mana costs go down, then it's working. And BTW mastery does apply to every fire spell now, including fire shield and fire elemental.

Also BTW, the fire elemental is now more of a serious beast. You only get him for short periods of time, so he needs to be buff even if you get his level 1 when you're level 50.

I got up to 7th level before I stopped for the day. I was able to diversify nicely and picked Teleport (which is one of the more balanced spells available). But one can do that in the original game at 7th level. So I'll try again soon... just have a busy week and need to do lots of work (and right now, I need to sleep).

OK great. At least I didn't break the early game You may want to make zipped backup copies of your character at different levels (say 7, 10, 15...) so you can test my later changes just by overwriting your old character. Make sure to note the level in the zip file name.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by Crisses

Having not played the endgame, another factor to account for, at least for non-area-effect spells is: Are there simply more creatures, more dungeon mods, or more champions/elites/uniques at the higher level end of the game -- or is it just the same numbers and same chance of buffs, just different difficulty levels per-monster?

From what I've seen, the only thing that increases with difficulty level is monster armor, resistance, damage, HP, defense, attack, and movement speed. Of course, the combined effect makes monsters MUCH more dangerous with each difficulty level -- you don't need to have more monsters for them to be dangerous. All these things (except for movement speed I think) increase slowly with monster level as well. Champions/elites get a couple extra boosts and uniques get massive boosts to certain stats.