The Balance Thread

[Bluddy]

I tweaked some values for the fire mage. I also decided to just use linear mana functions as they were good enough. That means it should be a lot clearer how much mana each spell uses. The only thing I could really use from Shadow now is an Inflation command to use for base skill damage.

Ice mage is next!

[Bluddy]

OK now that I'm thinking about the ice mage, I'd like to find ways to differentiate the different mage classes.

From looking at the available skills, it's clear fire mage is all about offense. Even his shield is purely offensive. Fire mage spells should be extremely strong, but not that expensive mana-wise -- the fire mage doesn't have additional access to mana, unlike the other mages. I'm also going to tweak spell times a little -- it's strange that the times don't increase and are actually faster for casting volcano and maelstrom than they are for the light spells. Was the fire mage supposed to be really fast?

The ice mage is clearly oriented more towards defense (Shatter not included). This mage should be more strategic. He's all about slowing down your opponents rather than blasting them. I'd say he should probably be pretty slow himself -- ice slows everything down.

Where it gets harder is differentiating the fire mage from the sorcerer. The sorcerer has extremely powerful spells, but should they be stronger than the fire mage's? The sorcerer already has more variety, as well as very good defense and a way to store mana -- which implies that his mana costs should also be higher.

I'm thinking of another way of differentiating fire mages from sorcerers. Does it not make sense that a high level fire mage should automatically have fire resistance? I think every spell should give you a point or 2 of fire resistance, and maybe even a point of cold vulnerability. Lightning spells would just give you lightning resistance.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm currently updating my excel book with all the skills so I don't have to keep updating it every time I handle another class.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

From looking at the available skills, it's clear fire mage is all about offense. Even his shield is purely offensive. Fire mage spells should be extremely strong, but not that expensive mana-wise -- the fire mage doesn't have additional access to mana, unlike the other mages. I'm also going to tweak spell times a little -- it's strange that the times don't increase and are actually faster for casting volcano and maelstrom than they are for the light spells. Was the fire mage supposed to be really fast?

I would think so.

While on-paper Volcano does "the most damage" it seems to have a tiny radius of effect, the total damage is OVER TIME, and unlike Maelstrom, it doesn't immobilize opponents. So it works on chests, totems, etc. -- things that don't move. Perhaps Plague Bearers and their lot. However, against anything reasonably mobile -- it stinks. Big-time. Just put the points in Maelstrom, it has a huge area of effect and freezes opponents so you can snipe them with other spells. Much more deadly. Most effects that immobilize opponents break when they're attacked/damaged. So if you're slowing or pinning down opponents, volcano might be good (Maelstrom + Volcano perhaps?) If anyone has a good strategy for volcano let me know (perhaps as a "trap" placed in-front of an oncoming horde? But it also doesn't last long....)

This is an issue WITH your mod installed.

The ice mage is clearly oriented more towards defense (Shatter not included). This mage should be more strategic. He's all about slowing down your opponents rather than blasting them. I'd say he should probably be pretty slow himself -- ice slows everything down.

Slowing down Shatter sure would level the playing field a lot.... but make sure you boost up other skills accordingly if you do that, otherwise it makes an Ice Mage near-useless.

Where it gets harder is differentiating the fire mage from the sorcerer. The sorcerer has extremely powerful spells, but should they be stronger than the fire mage's? The sorcerer already has more variety, as well as very good defense and a way to store mana -- which implies that his mana costs should also be higher.

And I keep looking at that tree and saying "Nope, not worth it..." -- although I am running a VERY fire-heavy character right now and that might hurt lots when critters start having good resistances.

I'm thinking of another way of differentiating fire mages from sorcerers. Does it not make sense that a high level fire mage should automatically have fire resistance? I think every spell should give you a point or 2 of fire resistance, and maybe even a point of cold vulnerability. Lightning spells would just give you lightning resistance.

It's only fair if you do similar for Ice Mages. i.e. + cold resist, - fire resist. One could get it to where it neutralizes in the middle and really means absolutely nothing, if you spread your skills out. Perhaps this would be fair on the elemental-defense skills but perhaps overkill if you added it to all the elemental offense skills. i.e. while you're using ice armor, you're more vulnerable to fire and less vulnerable to cold attacks. Makes sense, right?

Something about fire shield annoyed me and I dropped the points for it. For one, I think the cost went up pretty steeply for the return on the investment. But that's not it. The fire mage is ALL ABOUT kill before they get there. The points were much better spent either in Fire Mastery (thus lowering my mana costs to more reasonable levels so I can pour out more pain with less potions) OR in fireball so I could keep up with critter hit points and mash them from afar so that cave-ins don't kill me. Putting points in fire shield is like saying "Come and get me!" It's like the medical insurance plan that you pay for out-of-pocket then you want to get sick so you justify the enormous expense. Sorry, my USA-think is showing.

A big caution here: Due to fire mage's non-existent defense, single-target spells really need to be slung pretty quickly so they can be applied readily to onrushing hordes. The monsters in this game aren't always slow. So I haven't tried immolation yet -- I do have Fiery Blast. The thing is "How quickly can I kill this one guy?" if Immolation isn't going to take them down as quickly as Fiery Blast, then why bother? It better work -- I could see if it goes off fast immolating 3 opponents because they'd keep burning while I go on to the next one -- similar to what volcano is SUPPOSED to do to a group if creatures didn't move so darned fast. But what I'm doing instead is picking the center one and fireballing it a couple times (Fireball is pretty spammable, which maybe it shouldn't be, but if not it needs more "firepower" forgive the pun), and picking off stragglers with Fiery Blast.

Personally, I'd apply a fear factor with immolation:

Dude, you're spontaneously combusting -- and you're still rushing me? Shouldn't you run screaming for your quickly-diminishing-life? Heck, I just set your guts on fire, and you want to run up to me and ask for more pain?

[Bluddy]

Thanks for the excellent feedback -- it's exactly what I wanted!

Originally Posted by Crisses

I would think so.

While on-paper Volcano does "the most damage" it seems to have a tiny radius of effect, the total damage is OVER TIME, and unlike Maelstrom, it doesn't immobilize opponents. So it works on chests, totems, etc. -- things that don't move. Perhaps Plague Bearers and their lot. However, against anything reasonably mobile -- it stinks. Big-time. Just put the points in Maelstrom, it has a huge area of effect and freezes opponents so you can snipe them with other spells. Much more deadly. Most effects that immobilize opponents break when they're attacked/damaged. So if you're slowing or pinning down opponents, volcano might be good (Maelstrom + Volcano perhaps?) If anyone has a good strategy for volcano let me know (perhaps as a "trap" placed in-front of an oncoming horde? But it also doesn't last long....)

I didn't realize this was an issue with volcano. I made maelstrom more expensive, thinking that volcano being cheaper would make it more attractive, but if it has real problems, maybe I need to make it the most powerful spell instead. The alternative is to slow down all the critters in range.

Slowing down Shatter sure would level the playing field a lot.... but make sure you boost up other skills accordingly if you do that, otherwise it makes an Ice Mage near-useless.

Yeah -- It'll be tricky to get it right. The ice mage is slowdown oriented though, what with permafrost and ice prison. He should have time to destroy his enemies. I think I also want most ice spells to drop ice and water pools, so that ice mage would be a great combo with lightning spells.

And I keep looking at that tree and saying "Nope, not worth it..." -- although I am running a VERY fire-heavy character right now and that might hurt lots when critters start having good resistances.

Resistance doesn't really play much of a part in the game. It climbs up steadily, but it's uniform ie. all creatures have similar resistances. Unless you're facing fire elementals, it shouldn't be a problem. I'd love to mix it up some more. Skeleton warriors should have low lightning resistance because of their metal armor. The undead should resist magic because of their twisted, dark magic. Demons should have natural fire resistance (actually they may already have some. Haven't checked).

By the same token, I'd love for monster mages to be more of a threat in the game. Shadow has already said he's against that though, so that change wouldn't be in this specific mod.

It's only fair if you do similar for Ice Mages, i.e. + cold resist, - fire resist. One could get it to where it neutralizes in the middle and really means absolutely nothing, if you spread your skills out. Perhaps this would be fair on the elemental-defense skills but perhaps overkill if you added it to all the elemental offense skills. i.e. while you're using ice armor, you're more vulnerable to fire and less vulnerable to cold attacks. Makes sense, right?

I was thinking that you'd get 1 point of positive resistance and -1/2 of the opposite element's resistance, so that you'd still end up with a positive balance if you get both.

The armor idea is great! I love it! The problem is that the defensive spells are kind of cruddy as it is... How'd we make them worthwhile at all?

Something about fire shield annoyed me and I dropped the points for it. For one, I think the cost went up pretty steeply for the return on the investment. But that's not it. The fire mage is ALL ABOUT kill before they get there. The points were much better spent either in Fire Mastery (thus lowering my mana costs to more reasonable levels so I can pour out more pain with less potions) OR in fireball so I could keep up with critter hit points and mash them from afar so that cave-ins don't kill me. Putting points in fire shield is like saying "Come and get me!" It's like the medical insurance plan that you pay for out-of-pocket then you want to get sick so you justify the enormous expense. Sorry, my USA-think is showing.

Fire shield is tough. It's pretty useless for handling most creatures, but it looks like it would be amazing for handling bosses, which is why I still priced it fairly high. Maybe I should lower the price. I'm not crazy about the spell in general. You can already dish out damage, so why do you need a spell that lets you get hurt in exchange for dealing out more damage?

A big caution here: Due to fire mage's non-existent defense, single-target spells really need to be slung pretty quickly so they can be applied readily to onrushing hordes. The monsters in this game aren't always slow. So I haven't tried immolation yet -- I do have Fiery Blast. The thing is "How quickly can I kill this one guy?" if Immolation isn't going to take them down as quickly as Fiery Blast, then why bother? It better work -- I could see if it goes off fast immolating 3 opponents because they'd keep burning while I go on to the next one -- similar to what volcano is SUPPOSED to do to a group if creatures didn't move so darned fast. But what I'm doing instead is picking the center one and fireballing it a couple times (Fireball is pretty spammable, which maybe it shouldn't be, but if not it needs more "firepower" forgive the pun), and picking off stragglers with Fiery Blast.

The fire mage has 3 spammable spells which are very similar: fiery blast, fireball, and sweeping flames. They attack progressively more foes and cost a little more to use respectively, but I'm not sure how to differentiate between them. Maybe fireball should be a lot more expensive.

Personally, I'd apply a fear factor with immolation:

Dude, you're spontaneously combusting -- and you're still rushing me? Shouldn't you run screaming for your quickly-diminishing-life? Heck, I just set your guts on fire, and you want to run up to me and ask for more pain?

Great idea. I'll look into it. Immolation was clearly designed to be very powerful and expensive, but since it only attacks 1 target it's not very useful. Making it apply fear is a really good idea.

[Manumitted]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Thanks for the excellent feedback -- it's exactly what I wanted!

Fire shield is tough. It's pretty useless for handling most creatures, but it looks like it would be amazing for handling bosses, which is why I still priced it fairly high. Maybe I should lower the price. I'm not crazy about the spell in general. You can already dish out damage, so why do you need a spell that lets you get hurt in exchange for dealing out more damage?

The (limited) value of Fire Shield to me depends on a semi-exploit: It works on ranged attacks. This makes it great for taking out wisps and enemy casters, assuming a sufficiently powerful melee attack--always a caster strength, right?--and sufficient FS level.

Unless I find an FS obelisk or the Enchanter has nothing better, I don't bother with FS. It works better on melee types.

Great idea. I'll look into it. Immolation was clearly designed to be very powerful and expensive, but since it only attacks 1 target it's not very useful. Making it apply fear is a really good idea.

What about Immolation is any more frightening than being set on fire by the other fire spells? If I Fireball-spam something for 75% of its full lifebar and it's smoldering away another 4% per second of that last 25%, why does it keep charging me? CRPG monsters have a bad death wish like the cannon fodder that they all are.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Manumitted

What about Immolation is any more frightening than being set on fire by the other fire spells? If I Fireball-spam something for 75% of its full lifebar and it's smoldering away another 4% per second of that last 25%, why does it keep charging me? CRPG monsters have a bad death wish like the cannon fodder that they all are.

Well, I'm thinking that you can CLEARLY see the cause of your pain when the caster fireballs you -- you have a streak on your retina showing you a clear path to the problem.

However, with immolation -- either you have a really REALLY bad case of indigestion, or your guts are turning to mush suddenly. I think that's a big dis-incentive to running after the human standing over by that treasure chest. I haven't tried the spell so I'm not sure if there's a visual effect like a fireball or fiery blast which clearly says "Here he is!"

And yes, if the monsters had fear effects the way pets do now, then it would make life more amusing. Find them cowering in a closet somewhere...

[Manumitted]

Originally Posted by Crisses

And yes, if the monsters had fear effects the way pets do now, then it would make life more amusing. Find them cowering in a closet somewhere...

Mobs do suffer fear effects. I see them running from Chaos Lords all the time. It's hilarious when a "feared" unique mob runs from me for the few seconds he's still alive after I spot him. I Deep Wounded one of those "bad boys" and just laughed as he took off like a bug-sprayed cockroach, helplessly bleeding out his last moments.

[Bluddy]

Yeah currently fire shield works on ranged attacks, which is really weird. I really want to change that spell into something more worthwhile. Maybe if it absorbed some damage and dealt out some as well. Something like a mini-inferno would make a lot more sense.

I think fear might be a good way to enhance immolation. It's not necessarily that much more realistic, but it makes it a more worthwhile investment, since immolation only works on one target at a time. It causes a lot of damage, but slowly.

BTW I just realized that the skill points for some of the skills weren't bumping up properly. Fireball for example has been cheaper than I wanted it to be because skills don't go up by 1.5 points per level (I was hoping it would do 3 points over 2 levels which is how some other things work). I'll have to fix that. I think I also want to make fireball a little slower to cast, and maybe use more mana. Basically, your options for spammable fire spells would be getting a mix of low level and high level spam spells to handle the mana costs, or getting fire mastery and focusing on 1 or 2 high level spam spells.

[Bluddy]

OK updated fire mage to try address the issues above. I also have my excel book updated with all the skills now, so moving on should be faster.

I haven't implemented the fear based immolation yet. I just tried to make it more appealing as it is.

Sorting the spammable spells, fiery blast is fast and cheap, fireball is slow, strong and expensive, and sweeping flames are moderate speed, moderate strength, and attack everything in their path.

I tried to make volcano more effective by reducing the cooldown and making it last longer. Maelstrom also gets really expensive.

Also, for now, I implemented the resistance bonuses and penalties on all fire spells. I think it's a cool idea because it makes the elements more interesting.

I need to get a feel for the mana costs. Are they too much? Fire mastery is supposed to be more for the half-mage, who gets only around 1/2 the mana a full mage does, making balancing difficult.

[Bluddy]

Did some testing on my mod and here are the results I found:

- Maelstrom is too strong, or alternatively it still costs too little mana.
- Volcano has something wrong with it in general. That's the problem you're experiencing, Crisses -- you have to hit the exact right target to do real damage, otherwise the damage is minor. I'll have to play with it to get it right. EDIT: just noticed that you already hit on the problem -- the radius is just way too small. Also damage is too slow.
- OK a little more testing, and I think I figured out the problem with both of them. It's about the way they apply damage. I'll try to fix that in the next version.
- I like the mana costs even without mastery. They seem pretty good.
- I really like + fire resistance and - cold resistance. My fire mage has high fire resistance and -1 cold resistance. How cool is that? It makes things so much more interesting.