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  #341  
Old 01-05-2012, 03:48 PM
jureidinim jureidinim is offline
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I guess this will be a lot of tweaking to get just right

I do like the randomness of DC and difficulty it gives. One time you can have a walk in the park town to save, the next is utter chaos. Every game is different.

1. For the quests, yes its different from DoP, but remember, DoP had a completely different victory/loss condition - your covenant. So even if quests themselves slacked off in pacing, you still had opposing covenants to deal with.
In DC, the town is everything. The increased pace also reinforces the need to do (certain) quests quickly or the consequences will add up. It's a passive difficulty modifier which i think works well.
Honestly for me, even though it can be frustrating, having the bombardment of quests at one time just gives the game its own uniqueness. It makes each town feel different as the pace will vary from town to town - and it does give a huge feeling of accomplishment if you are able to bring the town back from the brink of unending chaos. Whatever you do for the quest system, please do not make the pacing feel "predictable" with each town. I dont want to figure out that if i have four pending quests that the others will "slow down".

2. Beating the boss.
Well - i'm not sure of this (on the point of killing the boss early). If i'm lucky and the boss is created on one of the early levels (levels 1 - 3) or i'm extremely lucky and find a trap or unknown gate which transports me straight to the lower level the boss happens to be on, then that's the only time i can maybe think about taking out the boss early. Other than that, the other quests keep me busy that i cant really make it down to his level to kill him. Worse if there is are multiple bosses and a superboss spawned.
This is one place where i think the (sometimes) rapid pace of quests (as discussed in your first point) is a benefit, as the player is kept busy fighting fires. Of course it could also be that i suck and take too long to kill a boss.. lol
One suggestion i would make if its possible - maybe enhance the monster promotion mechanic. You would be more knowledgable of this than I, but from what i see, a monster can move up to elite status - but not a boss - unless promoted by a superboss. Maybe it could be possible that if there are no bosses left, then after a certain time if the other quests aren't finished, a monster can promote all the way up to a new boss which would then start triggering those plot quests again.
Of course to prevent farming bosses then definately a reduction in XP/loot gained would have to be done as well as you suggested, or even just limit it to one new boss per town allowed.

3. Boosting bosses... sure as long as its balanced..

4. Difficult bosses.
I had one such boss once. A Changeling. Caused me to abandon the town. But, like a town that gets overwhelmed with a ton of quests - I just accepted it as a boss i could not beat - so this town was lost to me. And moved onto the next. I don't think DC is really about having to beat every boss you encounter. Unless you are on the optional difficulty level which kills you if you lose a town, the game allows you to move onto another town and continue with no real penalty.
Another character type/skills may have been able to beat a boss i find unbeatable.
So yes - this one would be hard to balance for every type of build in game WITHOUT nerfing bosses across the board. Bosses should be tough, and i dont think its so bad if you come across the odd one that is uber strong compared to your build.

Still enjoying your changes - looking forward to the new ones
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  #342  
Old 01-05-2012, 04:57 PM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jureidinim View Post
I guess this will be a lot of tweaking to get just right
There's always a lot of tweaking

Quote:
1. For the quests, yes its different from DoP, but remember, DoP had a completely different victory/loss condition - your covenant. So even if quests themselves slacked off in pacing, you still had opposing covenants to deal with.
In DC, the town is everything. The increased pace also reinforces the need to do (certain) quests quickly or the consequences will add up. It's a passive difficulty modifier which i think works well.
Honestly for me, even though it can be frustrating, having the bombardment of quests at one time just gives the game its own uniqueness. It makes each town feel different as the pace will vary from town to town - and it does give a huge feeling of accomplishment if you are able to bring the town back from the brink of unending chaos. Whatever you do for the quest system, please do not make the pacing feel "predictable" with each town. I dont want to figure out that if i have four pending quests that the others will "slow down".
OK right. If I reduce the pace, it'll only be a very slight adjustment. I don't want to reduce the rapid pace of quests as much as give the player a slight breather when the town is already packed with quests. The impression I get right now is that you get so many quests adding up that you can't even keep track of what's going on sometimes, unless you're eliminating quests left and right. I definitely want to preserve the hectic feel of things which makes DC unique.

Quote:
2. Beating the boss.
Well - i'm not sure of this (on the point of killing the boss early). If i'm lucky and the boss is created on one of the early levels (levels 1 - 3) or i'm extremely lucky and find a trap or unknown gate which transports me straight to the lower level the boss happens to be on, then that's the only time i can maybe think about taking out the boss early. Other than that, the other quests keep me busy that i cant really make it down to his level to kill him. Worse if there is are multiple bosses and a superboss spawned.
That's a good point. The boss does spawn down below. I guess what I'm talking about is a minmax point of view. Your best bet is to just take out the boss. This happens a lot in the vanilla game when you have a strong character (e.g. warrior) and you're at a lowish level. I just want to realign the incentives so that you have a reason not to kill the boss right away necessarily. I've already done some of this with the extra mod where I've reduced the number of drops from bosses. I also want to reduce the amount of money you get as a reward, which is unnecessary anyway since you also get loot (and XP).

Speaking of the extra mod, I've decided that the next version of the balance mod will include the extra mod ie. the extra mod will be no more. I'm now dealing with balancing things in the economy of the game, and the number of loot drops, treasure maps etc all affect that. So there won't be an option not to have the extra mod installed anymore.

Quote:
One suggestion i would make if its possible - maybe enhance the monster promotion mechanic. You would be more knowledgable of this than I, but from what i see, a monster can move up to elite status - but not a boss - unless promoted by a superboss. Maybe it could be possible that if there are no bosses left, then after a certain time if the other quests aren't finished, a monster can promote all the way up to a new boss which would then start triggering those plot quests again.
There's no way for a monster to be promoted to boss status AFAIK. However, new bosses can spawn occasionally, so if you wait around after killing the boss and don't save the town, another boss may show up.

Quote:
3. Boosting bosses... sure as long as its balanced..
Definitely. Some bosses are unfairly strong, like the scavenger, while others are way too weak, like all mages, all super slow types like skeletons etc. Bosses should be a threat. They shouldn't be a pushover monster you can kill with a few swipes.

Quote:
4. Difficult bosses.
I had one such boss once. A Changeling. Caused me to abandon the town. But, like a town that gets overwhelmed with a ton of quests - I just accepted it as a boss i could not beat - so this town was lost to me. And moved onto the next. I don't think DC is really about having to beat every boss you encounter. Unless you are on the optional difficulty level which kills you if you lose a town, the game allows you to move onto another town and continue with no real penalty.
Another character type/skills may have been able to beat a boss i find unbeatable.
So yes - this one would be hard to balance for every type of build in game WITHOUT nerfing bosses across the board. Bosses should be tough, and i dont think its so bad if you come across the odd one that is uber strong compared to your build.
Agreed here as well. There are just some builds that have a tough time killing any bosses at all. A good example is the necromancer. An idea I've had for him is that rather than having a buff to his minions that is weak and lasts for a long time, he should have a minion buff that's super strong and very short with a long cooldown.

Then there are some bosses that can't really be killed by anyone. The scavenger is very fast, and he just gets stronger and stronger, so that you just can't shake him. It's really frustrating to face a scavenger boss in the vanilla game. One idea I had is to make it such that as he gets bigger, he also gets slower. On the other hand, slow bosses should definitely get speed boosts.

Also, I would like to make it worthwhile to leave a boss alone for a while and come back later. In the early game, you'd get stronger from going up a level or two. In the later game, it'd be because you have better loot, perhaps a potion or two, and maybe even an enchantment. That doesn't mean you'll be able to beat said boss, but you'll have a better chance.

One of the ways to do this is to move the best loot from being found by beating the bosses (where it's currently at) to being found via exploration and vendors. For example, I've tried to make rare chests some of the most rewarding things in the game.

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Still enjoying your changes - looking forward to the new ones
Glad to hear it!
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  #343  
Old 01-08-2012, 10:15 AM
jureidinim jureidinim is offline
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On the point of giving incentives to leave a boss alone for awhile...

Could you adjust the game such that a boss is always part of a group then? Maybe always spawns certain monsters in his vicinity when a player is on same level as him? The number of "minions" spawned could be random each time.
That way you may not want to rush a boss just yet since you know it will be a huge fight.

Not sure if that is possible - and if the game tracks monsters even when you aren't on their level (since that may cause a problem of too many monsters spawning every time player leaves and re-enters a level).

Also - maybe a boss could be a bit more mobile - changes levels more frequently... not a lot... but after some time has passed, he may move down a level, which puts him a little further away from the player, again delaying the confrontation.

Not sure if those suggestions are within the modding realm or would need core code changes though.
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  #344  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Version 0.69 is now ready.

This release includes quite a few changes. Some minor ones: raised monsters now have the distinctive pet effect around them; monsters should now not attack cave-ins; they should also stop getting fearful for no reason.

But there are also some big changes. The biggest one is that the extra mod is no longer needed -- it's now incorporated into the balance mod. In fact, if you're using the extra mod, you should delete it from your assets directory.

The reason it's incorporated is that the balance mod now tries to tackle the issue of economy in the game. It's really hard to balance money in the game -- it may even be impossible. By 'balance' in this case, I mean that vendor weapons should be priced slightly out of your reach so you want to save up for them. There are so many ways of getting money, and so few ways of spending it, that it's hard to prevent a buildup. Nevertheless, I'm trying to make it such that weapons stay expensive, while health potions stay relatively cheap. Consider this version the first step in trying to get money to be a bigger part of the mid to late game.

I've also adjusted the cooldown on some skills. The necromancer should have an easier time with reduced cooldown on the skeleton spells, while cooldowns have been increased on what I consider to be 'super-spells' such as maelstrom and ball lightning. The necromancer has also had his dark ritual spell boosted. It now makes his pets REALLY strong but for a shorter while. This should help him tackle bosses and such.

Last edited by Bluddy : 01-08-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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  #345  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jureidinim View Post
On the point of giving incentives to leave a boss alone for awhile...

Could you adjust the game such that a boss is always part of a group then? Maybe always spawns certain monsters in his vicinity when a player is on same level as him? The number of "minions" spawned could be random each time.
That way you may not want to rush a boss just yet since you know it will be a huge fight.

Not sure if that is possible - and if the game tracks monsters even when you aren't on their level (since that may cause a problem of too many monsters spawning every time player leaves and re-enters a level).

Also - maybe a boss could be a bit more mobile - changes levels more frequently... not a lot... but after some time has passed, he may move down a level, which puts him a little further away from the player, again delaying the confrontation.

Not sure if those suggestions are within the modding realm or would need core code changes though.
Thanks for the suggestions. I especially like the idea of bosses moving around levels, though technically it could be problematic: the game spawns bosses based on the monsters spawned in a particular level. If the boss moves one level down and all the monsters there happen to hate his monster faction, he isn't going to survive very long. There would need to be a mechanism to migrate both the boss and his faction to the other level.

Anyway, I don't think I can do these things without changing game code. However, I'm planning on having some bosses spawn enemies around them. Priest bosses in particular will spawn other monsters or perhaps monster gates (I'm not sure which yet). This way, priests are going to be much more formidable as bosses.

While I'm talking about this, here are some other plans I have:
- I feel that liches are far too weak in the game. They've been reduced to ranged characters, when really they should be the undead counterbalance to chaos lords. I'm going to allow them to spawn skeletons around themselves and to have access to more necromancer spells.
- In general, it would be nice if more user spells were used by monster mages and priests. Elf wizards and priests in particular should be nearly as adept as the player in using spells. I'd like to separate elf mages into fire, ice and lightning mages, as well as master mages who can use combinations of disciplines.
- I would really like to make it such that there's a way that friendly monsters will fight once in a long while. I think I've found a way to do this, but I'll have to investigate it further.
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  #346  
Old 01-08-2012, 01:36 PM
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Castruccio Castruccio is offline
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Thanks Bluddy. I will test out some of the Necro stuff this week and post some impressions. I never played a Necro in vanilla DC so I won't have much to compare it to, but I may be able to tell you whether something is radically out of whack.
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  #347  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:28 PM
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Castruccio Castruccio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluddy View Post

monsters should now not attack cave-ins;
Why shouldn't monsters attack cave-ins? Shouldn't they want to break through them so that they can get to you and do damage to you? It was kind of cool that they would attack environmental objects in order to get to you.
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  #348  
Old 01-09-2012, 12:28 AM
Bluddy Bluddy is offline
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Originally Posted by Castruccio View Post
Why shouldn't monsters attack cave-ins? Shouldn't they want to break through them so that they can get to you and do damage to you? It was kind of cool that they would attack environmental objects in order to get to you.
They should still attack stuff to get to you. But they won't attack a cave-in boulder just because it fell on them, and therefore be distracted from attacking you.
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  #349  
Old 01-09-2012, 01:29 PM
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Castruccio Castruccio is offline
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Ok, thanks for the clarification.
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  #350  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:06 PM
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Castruccio Castruccio is offline
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Would it be possible or desirable to incorporate a fix for starve spam into the mod so that townspeople still starve but they don't all starve at the exact same moment? I know something like this has been made before, but it would seem to make the starving a bit more realistic if it were spaced out a bit.
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