The Balance Thread

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728

Cool patch! Just one question bluddy, did i install something wrong-the hunter has no bonus to defense.

Ahh no, you didn't install it wrong. Before I went over the defense/attack stuff (ie. just now) I needed to add a passive mana gain skill to the hunter since he wasn't given one. I think the original logic with the hunter was that he didn't need power gain since he has the infused energy skill. I felt that he still needed a power gain skill, so I gave him one. Since he's got a full tree of 20 skills already, I had to remove one skill, and the Defense per DEX seemed like a good target.

I do think I'll bring it back -- I even modified the amount of defense per DEX in the latest version since I forgot about its removal. What I'll do for the next version is use 'skill compression' -- I'll put 2 skills together under one skill. For example I can combine the bow and dagger skills. I've done it for other classes that needed extra skills (for example combining mace and staff into 'blunt weapons').

[DeathKnight1728]

I finally got down to trying out the new amped up speed boosts and i loved the reaver one, and not so much for the weaponmaster one. First, rampage for the Reaver. I think that the reaver's speed boost is great because while it doesnt give the most time, it allows you to actually see a difference if you plug 20-25 points into it, making it very good in endgame.

I think that the weaponmaster one should be made to be like the reaver's but unique all on its own. Adrenaline could be much better if a 1% boost to movement speed was added to it, giving its name adrenaline a more suited role. Also it needs to be quite a bit longer. I think that if adrenaline was to be given anywhere from 18-20 seconds with a reuse time of a minute, that would be fair and balanced as reavers is more for hitting while adrenaline is more for speed.

Also i noticed that crushing blow passives for paladin and gladiator overlap. That is to say the gladiator's while it is 4 points, gives .9 crushing blow and paladins gives the same amount at 2 points.

Aside from that, i will keep on trying to giving my passives fighter a shot.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728

I finally got down to trying out the new amped up speed boosts and i loved the reaver one, and not so much for the weaponmaster one. First, rampage for the Reaver. I think that the reaver's speed boost is great because while it doesnt give the most time, it allows you to actually see a difference if you plug 20-25 points into it, making it very good in endgame.

I think that the weaponmaster one should be made to be like the reaver's but unique all on its own. Adrenaline could be much better if a 1% boost to movement speed was added to it, giving its name adrenaline a more suited role. Also it needs to be quite a bit longer. I think that if adrenaline was to be given anywhere from 18-20 seconds with a reuse time of a minute, that would be fair and balanced as reavers is more for hitting while adrenaline is more for speed.

I usually compare the weaponmaster's adrenaline to the archer's fast draw, as they're very similar. The archer can now use Fast Draw together with poison and fire arrows, giving him the clear advantage, so it does make some sense to add something to Adrenaline. I haven't really compared it to Rampage before, though you're right that those 2 are also similar.

Adrenaline does ultimately builds up to a 20-something second skill, but I almost certainly need to reduce the cooldown buildup there. Also, running fast is really the hunter's domain, and it makes sense: the hunter is a pretty weak class with no passive abilities and only one attack, relying on quick getaways, traps and sneak attacks to survive. If I give fast speed to the weaponmaster, I feel like the warrior gets yet another skill to add to its repertoire of high damage, passives and a variety of attacks. Maybe a small speed increase that doesn't go up with level would serve to make it more unique.

Also i noticed that crushing blow passives for paladin and gladiator overlap. That is to say the gladiator's while it is 4 points, gives .9 crushing blow and paladins gives the same amount at 2 points.

Good job picking that out. Starting at 2 instead of 4 for a passive skill allows you to raise the skill another level at the same point cost. That means that for the same cost, the paladin can have .9% more. I can therefore make the paladin's bonus around .9% less, giving him .81%. On the other hand, I'm not sure the paladin doesn't deserve a small advantage -- he has a tougher time than the weaponmaster in many ways. Maybe I'll set it at 0.85% so he still gets a small bonus.

[DeathKnight1728]

By the way bluddy, I was thinking of giving kivi's underworld another go at playing the game. The problem is i want to be able to play as all classes at the start of the game. Last time i tried to do this, i had to uninstall the game and reinstall it. Do you know, in simple terms if there is a cheat to unlocking them without modding. Ive tried time and time again to do it, but i suck at modding

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728

By the way bluddy, I was thinking of giving kivi's underworld another go at playing the game. The problem is i want to be able to play as all classes at the start of the game. Last time i tried to do this, i had to uninstall the game and reinstall it. Do you know, in simple terms if there is a cheat to unlocking them without modding. Ive tried time and time again to do it, but i suck at modding

Just drop this file in your assets folder for Kivi. It should be a fun experience without the global stats build-up. Enjoy!

[DeathKnight1728]

thanks bluddy, you rock!

i havent played this game in a while and this is the 1st time starting it i get to see all hidden chars. I had no idea there was a skeleton you get on your side.

Thinking on this game, it kind of sucks that steven wont make another one like it. I happen to think that if he gave each char 2 more skills while differentiating between making each unique, he would have had a better concept. Such a shame.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728

thanks bluddy, you rock!

i havent played this game in a while and this is the 1st time starting it i get to see all hidden chars. I had no idea there was a skeleton you get on your side.

Thinking on this game, it kind of sucks that steven wont make another one like it. I happen to think that if he gave each char 2 more skills while differentiating between making each unique, he would have had a better concept. Such a shame.

This is getting way off topic for this thread, but I did like Kivi a lot. However, it has quite a few faults:
1. It gets unbalanced if you invest too much in global points. You can breeze through even on hard difficulty.
2. Global points are too easy to attain. Secrets are too tempting to skip, and making secrets give you points means that you become too strong too easily. Secrets should have been used for extra characters, or unlocking character special abilities -- not for becoming stronger.
3. Hunting for secrets is like reliving Wolfenstein 3D or Doom. Sometimes you can pick out the different looking walls and click only on those. Other times you have to click every single wall, making the game a drag. A good solution to this would have been to make you able to search for secrets only every 30 seconds or so, so unless you really think there's a secret there, you won't click.
4. The game drags on for too long without changing enough. 30 levels is too much, and though I only got halfway through so far, I didn't find enough interesting stuff to keep me going. This is probably a complaint against DoP and DC too: not enough late game content; but here it's more severe since DoP and DC generate their cool stuff via randomness. Kivi lacks good scripted content.
5. Too many characters with not enough differentiating them. Some characters play differently e.g. the ninja. Other characters are brilliant, like the one that manipulates powerups. But there are too many that have abilities that play out almost entirely the same way.
6. AoE characters almost always dominate. The levels aren't varied enough to make some characters excel at some levels and other characters excel at others. If you go for an AoE character, you'll beat levels easily.
7. This would have been a great game to write a very detailed story for. Characters could have had dialogs in levels and moved around, had debates etc. Instead the narrative is basic, and only exists between levels. We don't see the characters interact at all. Part of the problem is that there are just too many characters.
8. Levels look too similar. DoP had different objects created for each area, but in Kivi, a legendary ghost town somehow looks very similar to a dungeon. I expected more objects: clocks, bookcases, tables, etc. There wasn't enough atmosphere in those areas that weren't just dungeons or ice caves.
9. Finally, the reason Kivi failed (IMO), is that it isn't special enough. There's nothing groundbreaking or excellent about it. Unlike DoP and DC, it doesn't do anything that unique, and an Indie dev HAS to do something unique or brilliant to sell games. Had it been a very well crafted adventure with an intricate story, beautiful locations and endearing characters AS WELL AS possessing the core game mechanics, it could have done brilliantly, but alas, it didn't have those things. I view the game more as a fun bonus for people who love the other Soldak games and want a more relaxing, carefully balanced, puzzle-y experience.
10. Kivi also doesn't cut it as a casual game. The levels are too big and intricate for casual gamers to follow. Casual games usually have bite-size levels. Also I think the secrets don't lend themselves well to casual gaming.

On the other hand, I personally enjoyed Kivi much more than I expected to. I think the basic gaming mechanic is solid: no loot, powerups, hand-crafted balance, easy-going exploration, finite levels. It's often my go-to game when I just want to do some low-focus gaming, but that might be because I'm already a Soldak fan. I think that if you go back to Kivi, cut down the characters to 6 and give them personalities, have them unlock special abilities, make the game act out the story with dialog (that changes based on the playing character and includes bad guys talking), and flesh out some of the locations graphically, the result would be spectacular.

[DeathKnight1728]

Bluddy, ive noticed that the gladiator is missing a 10th skill on his list as one was put onto the defender's giving him 11. I dont think this is bad, however if you do have the ability to do so, i think i can think of a 10th skill.

The gladiator lost blood lust which made no sense, however if you add a passive called savagery, i think it might work. The gladiator is already the complete opposite of the trickster. He draws attention to himself and gets monsters to romp over to him so he can slice them up. While the trickster does the opposite, he gets a sleight of hand or jab to lighten the monsters off him. Now while i have never actually been into reducing monster hate (Ive never seen a change), i do think that gaining monster hate would be good for the gladiator as he can then gather monsters up for a nice aoe cleave or other aoe attack. It doesnt even have to be passive, though i would think it might work that way. Gaining monster hate is good when you prefer to slice everything up, and even more so if you are online multiplayer and are trying to get monsters to go after you while the rest of the party shoots missiles or spells from away.

I think this would be good for the gladiator side as it wont make him any more powerful as he already is. Gladiator class is already done well where its at. Shields, attack bonus, strength bonus, focus skills. If it got any better you might as well double the class taking gladiator/gladiator with 2 focus deal damage or armor making you impossible to beat

[Bluddy]

I think Enrage already does that and (in the mod) much more. In vanilla, it increases monster hate and reduces defense, but I made it reduce defense by percentage and increase critical hits. I didn't think attracting the attention of mobs was a good enough reason for people to choose that skill.

But doesn't Enrage cover what you're suggesting? I also don't know if you want that kind of thing to be passive.

Maybe I could move the Parry skill from the Defender to the Gladiator. Or perhaps an even better choice would be Gut, which is not really a Defender-type skill. The Defender would be left with no simple attack skills (except Shield Bash) but then that could be a good thing. Choosing the Defender means that you're willing to try out his powerful defensive attacks. Gut was a way out for people who wanted his Plate/defense bonuses without specializing in his other skills, but it really belongs more in the Gladiator tree. What do you think?

[DeathKnight1728]

I completely agree. Gut is not something the defender would have in his mindset. Defender is all about waiting for the poor unfortunate guy to hit/parry or block you and then unleashing it. In the original game, i believe riposte's damage can go to the 100s of thousands as each level you gain 50% damage. Imagine that at level 25 or 30. The reason that is so unbalanced is that not even the highest of monsters can cope with that type of damage.