The Balance Thread

[Castruccio]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Version 0.77 is a small revision with some more big changes.

I've increased the chance for smiths to know how to fix items. But that's the small change. The big change is an experimental one, and it concerns fire, ice and lightning mages. The masteries are now no longer present as regular skills -- they rely on fire/cold/lightning resistance to go up in level. Since mages are currently the least balanced class, I feel that this is the time to try experiment to get them to be more interesting. One of the problems of the mages is that they're so detached from items. By making mastery rely on resistance, it makes items much more valuable for mages, or at least I hope it will. Please try out a fire mage/ice mage/sorcerer even though it's not balanced yet and let me know if this new mastery seems like a good idea.

Also, I couldn't get rid of the little plus buttons on the mastery skills, even though you can't click on them. Sorry.

This is going to be insane. I will try it out though. What will happen to all the points I put into my mastery once I install the mod? Should I remove them first? Also, how much resistance to a given element does it take to get an additional level of mastery in that element?

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by Castruccio

This is going to be insane. I will try it out though. What will happen to all the points I put into my mastery once I install the mod? Should I remove them first? Also, how much resistance to a given element does it take to get an additional level of mastery in that element?

I tested it and it seems like the level of your mastery skill is preserved. But I can't be 100% certain of that yet, so it's best to make a backup of your character just in case. For now, I didn't adjust the actual bonuses per mastery level, so a good match in terms of resistances seemed around 30 resistance per level.

[Castruccio]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

I tested it and it seems like the level of your mastery skill is preserved. But I can't be 100% certain of that yet, so it's best to make a backup of your character just in case. For now, I didn't adjust the actual bonuses per mastery level, so a good match in terms of resistances seemed around 30 resistance per level.

So just to be clear, I need to get an ice resistance of 30 in order to get one level of ice mastery, 60 for 2 levels, etc?

Also, a visiting smith with repair finally (!) came to my town. It was the most welcome sight ever. How long do visiting smiths stay in the town? Do you happen to know?

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by Castruccio

So just to be clear, I need to get an ice resistance of 30 in order to get one level of ice mastery, 60 for 2 levels, etc?

Yep. It's a shot in the dark right now. The problem with this method of doing things is that a player can use many item slots to build up resistance. I'll probably make it go up much faster eventually -- every 15 resistance or so, and I'll also lower the mastery bonuses. I also need to figure out what to do with SPR, which is now a little too important for mages.

Also, a visiting smith with repair finally (!) came to my town. It was the most welcome sight ever. How long do visiting smiths stay in the town? Do you happen to know?

That's the exact reaction I was hoping for! Now I guess I have to change the values back back There's actually a range of time it could have, depending on which wandering vendor quest was chosen. Either 5-10 minutes or 20-40 minutes. So I guess that's not much help

[Castruccio]

Alright then, I will untrain my current resistances and install the patch so I am playing from 0 mastery. I'll also start looking for resistance items.

[desophos]

I foresee at least three problems with the "resistance = mastery" idea:

1. Resistance potions are now super buffs for mages.
2. The ice mage's Ice Armor spell is now a super buff, because it raises armor and ice resistance.
3. Dual hybrid mages (e.g. Ice Mage / Ice Mage) can take advantage of double masteries to an even greater extent than before, because they automatically get double the bonus.

I'm starting an Ice Mage / Ice Mage now, so I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by desophos

I foresee at least three problems with the "resistance = mastery" idea:[list=1][*]Resistance potions are now super buffs for mages.

I see this as possibly a good thing. It gives resistance potions another purpose, and gives mages a way to boost their power temporarily (warriors can do it with strength potions, so why not mages). It probably means that a. I'll shorten their effect and b. I'll limit the maximum amount of mastery you can gain per level to prevent getting completely insane boosts. For example, I might make it so that you can only get another mastery level every 3 levels. That would mean that around level 90 you could reach level 30 if you had enough resistance.

Also, magic spells aren't going to be as strong as they are now once I balance them, so the boost will be welcome.

[*]The ice mage's Ice Armor spell is now a super buff, because it raises armor and ice resistance.

Great point. I completely neglected to think about that. That's why I released this experimental build -- I just kept on debating back and forth about whether it was a good idea or not and I couldn't decide. Now we'll see if this is doable or not, and if it's fun. For Ice Armor and Shield of Fire, I'll have to give them a set resistance bonus that only increases very slowly per level. I might also make them give the opposite resistance. It makes more sense for a shield of fire to nullify cold damage, and for ice armor to stop fire damage.

Dual hybrid mages (e.g. Ice Mage / Ice Mage) can take advantage of double masteries to an even greater extent than before, because they automatically get double the bonus.

That's true, but as you say, it only increases their advantage by a little. Pure mages will have a really hard time against many enemies in the game, so it makes sense to give them some advantage too.

I'm starting an Ice Mage / Ice Mage now, so I'll let you know how it turns out.

Great. Just to remind everyone, this is an experiment. If it doesn't work out, I'll basically revert to the last version (0.76). I need feedback on whether this makes things more interesting.

Here are the other possible ideas I've had regarding this mechanic. Feel free to think of more stuff:
1. Fire mages gain mastery from fire resistance as they do now, and lose mastery from cold resistance. This seems cool because it makes things a little more complicated, and also it nullifies the advantage of getting SPR (which gives you fire AND cold). The downside I thought of is that it'll cause people to really get only one kind of resistance bonus in their equipment, instead of possibly splitting among several resistances.
2. Fire mages gain mastery as they do now, and they also have a fire mastery spell that gives them extra resistance and therefore extra mastery. This was a problem because it would take away the need to have resistance from equipment.
[UPDATE]
3. There's a mastery skill like there used to be, as well as a mastery skill that depends on items. Using the mastery skill subtracts resistance, making the two mutually exclusive.

Finally, there's a problem with this whole mechanic because fire skills outside the fire mage tree will have to scale differently as compared to fire mage skills. This means that I might have to remove the effect of mastery on skills outside the fire mage tree. EDIT: this is a problem with masteries in general actually.

The question is, is it more fun to have mages seek out equipment, or should I just go back to the old skill-based way of doing masteries? That's what I'm hoping to answer over the next couple of versions.

[Bluddy]

Version 0.78 is up.

This is a minor patch containing balance tweaks mostly concerning the latest switch to using resistances as masteries. I've worked out what I hope are most of the kinks. Let me know if I've missed anything.

At the same time, I realize that to test this thing properly, the magic spells need to be reduced in power to match the HP of the monsters better. Unfortunately this will take me a while to do

[desophos]

My Ice Mage / Ice Mage is up to level 11 now, and I've been extremely lacking in mana. I've put every point in Intelligence, but I can't even spam Arctic Shard for long. The worst part is having to wait around between battles for my mana to regenerate. Maybe you can increase regen when not in combat? I think the current state of mana is perfect for non-pure-mage classes, but as a pure mage my only offensive option is spamming spells, which I can't do with such low mana regen. I'm sure that it won't be a problem at higher levels, once I find mana regen gear and invest in Concentration, but it's been a problem throughout the game so far and probably will be up until around level 20.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by desophos

My Ice Mage / Ice Mage is up to level 11 now, and I've been extremely lacking in mana. I've put every point in Intelligence, but I can't even spam Arctic Shard for long. The worst part is having to wait around between battles for my mana to regenerate. Maybe you can increase regen when not in combat? I think the current state of mana is perfect for non-pure-mage classes, but as a pure mage my only offensive option is spamming spells, which I can't do with such low mana regen. I'm sure that it won't be a problem at higher levels, once I find mana regen gear and invest in Concentration, but it's been a problem throughout the game so far and probably will be up until around level 20.

Yeah it's a problem I'm aware of. Mages really are the least balanced class in the mod right now, and the mana costs/mana recharge rate/spell damage really needs to be adjusted. It's part of the problem with doing this testing at the moment. I'll see if I can find a quick, temporary solution.