The Feedback Thread

[xtxlx]

I've played about 20 hours now, and the only thing that really irritates me about the game are ambushes. I've had several deaths due to instant kill ambushes.

It goes Ambush! - Surrounded and unable to move - death due to scarabrus boomer explosions, Saurian fire breath, etc. 2 seconds from full health to dead.

Could they at least spawn a little bit away from the hero so he could move?

[Tuidjy]

Re: Ambushes

Most classes have a way of dealing with being surrounded. You need ways of getting away from such a predicament when you play hardcore, so here is how you can deal with it:
warrior, death knight - whirlwind (it's called something else for the knight, but it is the same skill)
demon hunter - ravage
wizard - teleport
rogue - disarm traps (ambushes triggered by monsters do not spawn on top of you)
conjurer - nova
priest - the priest has a hard time killing quickly, but has amazing survivability, and can quickly cast the relevant protection spell, then heal his way out.

I have died to a saurian ambush. Once. You can be damn sure that I no longer run characters who would die to an ambush. When you play exclusively hardcore, you try not to make the same mistake twice.

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Re: Triple hybrids

Standard hybrids are already extremely powerful, with a much higher potential than any normal class. Giving them an extra tree with all that entails - higher stat bonuses, access to more equipment, extra skills to stack... is absolutely unbalancing.

No amount of experience penalty is going to make them unattractive, except by slowing their growth to the point of utter boredom and drudgery. And they will still be unbalanced.

I do not mind people using mods to balance the game so that they can enjoy it the most, personally. But I do not like the native game being peppered with obvious choices.

The only way I think triple hybrids belong in the native game is if they automatically receive the "Ego" and "Loner" attributes. No need for experience penalty, then. Do not get me wrong, they will still be braindead choice. I am playing with hardcore, loner and ego right now, and triple hybrids would be definitely making things easier.

[Faceless]

Responding back about triple hybrids:

I do not agree that it would be so unbalancing that an XP penalty would have to be so severe as to be unplayable, or that handicaps as severe as loner and ego would have to be imposed. An XP penalty is in keeping with how Soldak dealt with Slower Pace and Low Stress. The easiest setting would be -20% for Very Slow Pace, -15% for Low Stress, plus whatever Soldak would penalize for triple hybrid (actually being an easy choice only if an efficient combination is chosen). -25% seems reasonable for use in harder settings with no other XP penalty, and if someone was set on all the easiest settings, they'd add up to pushing -55%+ XP overall. I note that World Setting XP penalties can change per game for the same character, while the triple hybrid penalty is attached to the character as long as it exists.

Speaking more constructively: As I see it, the only way triple hybrids would be a real potential problem is in multiplayer. Player A doesn't like triple hybrids and doesn't want to play with them, Player B wants to bring one. A host game option to ban triple class hybrids from joining the host server would address that issue.

Less constructively: I don't care what choices other players make for the customization settings in their single player games and I don't understand why any other players would, either. The only party that should really care about that at all is Soldak itself from a game design perspective. Options for settings are one of the best features of Soldak games. More options are good if Soldak is willing to add them, and they are the judge of that. From where I sit, if Soldak is willing to consider it, great! If they cannot or will not add it for their own reasons, that's fair, they would be the ones doing the work to implement it and QA it. I am not a coder and do not know how much work it would take to do. It doesn't hurt to ask after it as part of the beta feedback period, though.

It is possible I am misreading you and if so I apologize, but I do not currently see any other way to take the tone of your disagreement. I tend to be a bit irritated when gaming community members seem to assert that there is a 'correct' way to play the single player side of a game, when the only party with any platform to make statements about that is the developers themselves. I also have difficulty with a fellow player appearing to present the concept that a proposed option should not be allowed to exist in the base game because the obvious 'braindead' choice, which somehow becomes a mandatory unavoidable requirement, is to power-game and max-min as far as the game mechanics will let you - including the new option if it is added. Nothing is being done to you and nothing is being taken away by adding another optional choice. The reason I think a crushing penalty significantly higher than -25% XP isn't justified is that many individual skill trees have overlapping skills, and players may try weird combinations for variety's sake that are not particularly effective or efficient. Power-gamers will power-game regardless and abuse every feature that can be abused. I don't believe we should point at them and say 'This is why we can't have nice things' to dismiss proposals that would be beneficial to everyone else. I am thinking about having options available for everyone else and made the proposal in that spirit.

You made the choice of setting hardcore, loner, and ego - triple hybrid is just another choice that you could refuse to take as part of ensuring an increased challenge, if you really think it would make the game too easy regardless of the penalty for it. Turning this around on you - to make your game even more challenging, you could always take the same 3 skill selections as one of the base classes to just to add the penalty on top of everything else you do, with no benefit!

[Tuidjy]

There is a huge difference between playing with a mod that makes the game much easier for you and trying to convince the developers to make that mod part of the native game.

The former affects no one but the one using the mod. The latter affects everyone playing the game, if only because the balance has shifted, and the developers have to decide whether they will balance the game for the old power curve, or for easy mode.

Triple hybrids is just that - easy mode. The 25% experience penalty is laughable. By using the third set to add a cloak to melee/priest hybrids or a shield to rogue/wizard hybrids, you will negate that penalty on level 5 (+25% experience items) and crush it into the ground by level 50 (+180% experience items)

The challenge in playing hybrids is to try and find a pair of skillsets that builds on each other, while not leaving a glaring weakness. The most exciting square hybrids (weaponmaster, assassin, fire mage) are an exercise in risk taking. Add a defender as a third skillset, and they become a no-brainer. For any build that is tough enough, magician provides additional defense and a cheap way to get out of trouble. For any melee build, fire mage adds a game changer with Flame Shield. Etc, etc, etc...

You can have a discussion whether hybrids or classes are more powerful, and I have. You cannot have a discussions about triple hybrids, and I'll miss the opinions of those that choose them.

So, as far as I am concerned, I see not qualitative difference, only a quantitative one, between a mod that makes all levels of all skills cost 1 skill point, and triple hybrids. Sure, one only wounds balance, the other throws it into a wood-chipper. But they both change the game in a way that I think is unnecessary, and harmful.

And in general, I hardly care about experience penalties and bonuses. I enjoy the process of playing Soldak's games, and for me, it is about survival, and victory. Whether it takes me ten sectors or twenty, it does not matter. The best part is always the one while I am slowly exploring a dangerous system/region on the edge of my seat, as opposed to the one where I twiddle my thumbs, waiting for the items to fall on the ground to see whether there's anything worth picking up.

[Faceless]

Again, I do not agree. I acknowledge and appreciate that you really, really do not like the idea. I believe we have reached a point where there is no reason to continue on this topic, as it seems to me our outlooks are fundamentally irreconcilable on a basic level.

I intend that statement in this spirit: if I responded more directly to your points, you could safely assume that for 90% of it I would say "I acknowledge you have an opinion on that point, but I disagree with the basic underlying premises involved in how you value and present the point". We are not even on the same wavelength about what is acceptable and what is a problem, and to keep going would be to waste space on this thread to no constructive purpose or outcome.

My intent was to leave feedback and make suggestions to Soldak, not to turn the feedback thread into an argument about triple hybrids. Responding to you directly was against my better judgment, and I am sorry to see that my initial concern about that was confirmed. I wanted to ask Soldak about it and I did. Asking doesn't hurt. It is up to them and that is the bottom line for me.

Every time you get close to convincing me that you may at least have a valid opposing point based on the case you build, you do yourself a disservice by making appeals to a personal authority you do not have for the dual purpose of trying to further justify your position while at the same time preemptively dismissing any further response. This doubly reinforces my perception that there is no point in continuing our discussion on this topic. You are just another person that bought the game. You don't agree with the suggestion and cite mechanics and numbers for your counterpoint. That part is fine. However, I do not recognize that you have any special authority to declare the developer should not be asked about a suggestion outside your personal interpretation of how the game should be, or that you would have the authority to dismiss the suggestion out of hand by asserting that it cannot be discussed here at all. Soldak can tell me that. The moderator can tell me that. I will listen to them. Not you, though. I'll miss your opinions too. Have a nice day.

[Tuidjy]

Originally Posted by Tuidjy

You can have a discussion whether hybrids or classes are more powerful, and I have. You cannot have a discussions about triple hybrids, and I'll miss the opinions of those that choose them.

I have trouble believing that the above can be misunderstood to mean that I presume to forbid you from discussing triple hybrids. I meant that there is no discussion to be had about whether triple hybrids are superior to currently existing characters - any of them is superior to any hybrid that uses a subset of its skillsets, and thus there is nothing to discuss.

But you choose to read it in a way that was obviously not intended, and use it as proof that I claim any authority beyond familiarity with the game.

One thing you are correct about, though. There is no point in further discussion.

[Throwback]

I want to give some general feedback, having played on and off since very early beta:

The game has continually and substantially improved:
- The UI is better, but still not perfect (I can't stress how important it is to keep working on it).
- The world is better. Making bosses more active, changing vendor rates, adding the zombie bar, fixing bugs, changing difficulty - all great changes
- towns are better (but not perfect). Quests from clan members is very cool and gives a sense of attachment.
- character designs are great in my experience. I'm playing a defender/riposte build and it took me 4-5 tries to figure out how to do it. I'm now level 27 and loving it!
- NPC clans have become more and more unique - very cool

As in any game, there are still some things I would like to see:
- more attachment to the town. I don't know how, but 95% of the time my visits to town are to the crafting table. Perhaps more in-town quests? Make conversations give NPCs 1 point of happiness if they have the 'chat' icon?
- Acid. Acid sucks, it can be very difficult to avoid for melee characters. I guess it's probably intentional.
- Beholders - the ones I am running into don't cast any spells, despite their description saying that's what they do. Perhaps I am running into a crap variety with no magic?
- adventuring party. Why do enemies always attack my sword & shield wielding NPCs instead of me? I do the most damage even with just auto-attacks. Taunt doesn't seem to do much to help. Pretty annoying on my character designed to benefit from being attacked.
- cost of NPC clan abilities. Maybe I'm missing some easy way of making money, but these things cost a fortune. An obvious one is the Hunter clan (can't recall name) - why does food of all things cost so much, especially when you need to buy large amounts to have any real effect? Paying for rumours is so expensive that even buying one will cripple me - and it's not even a guaranteed effect.

[GTD-Carthage]

Hi, guys! Recently got Zombasite too to check out what Soldak is working on and, hey, this game's like a rolling-up together of several Soldak games - and I like it!

I do have some feedback - I was supposed to write something long but I decided to rephrase them as some of them just happen to go out-of-date on subsequent playthroughs, so I'll just get to some points:

* This is definitely the best looking Soldak game yet, especially with the improved wilderness and dungeon looks! On the matter terrain variety, I do feel though that it's mostly focused on biomes with a lot of foiliage.
--How about some more barren locations like mountains and canyons that just use a whole lot of rocks in place of foiliage? (the game does have a lot of rock models already! Including the ones used in dungeons too!)
--Perhaps we could have destroyed cities too? These zones could just use models that already exist, mixing town structures, objects, and some dungeon walls! Gotta have formerly-densely-populated locations to emphasize the zombie apocalypse, you know! While other leftover towns already exist, they all have the same functional layout - a walled village with stuff in the center - a city layout that follows the maze-like natural areas would add a bit more flare, I feel.
* The Donate to Clan feature is absolutely great, and makes managing a large clan practically possible. I do feel though, maybe there's something along the lines of a button to donate all your carried unequipped items too in as much as we already have an Identify All?
* How about a Repair All button too? It's a bit more difficult now, having to pick between Armor and Grindstones and picking your way through your equipment list, especially when using those items on max durability items, upgrades them further and costs you those ingredients.
*When clan members produce equipment outside of their crafting quests, they just whisk it directly into your inventory and in the middle of a fight, and it's easy to miss. Maybe there's a clan rewards chest where you can retrieve the produced items instead? My inventory fills up with Empty Bottles quite frequently!
*When a raid on your fortress is over, everyone who pretty much died will fill your screen with cluttered equipment. Maybe there's a way to easily clean clutter left on your fortress floor after a raid is over? I have no idea what to suggest on this though, but I do feel like your clanmates could try picking some of them up themselves?

Now on to a bug:
* I noticed an instance of creatures spawning right under corners of dungeon walls. Even after stepping right beside them, the game tells me they're not in my line of sight, so I can't interact with them. Stepping right into their square let's me do something though, but it's not quite acceptable as a ranged character...

I'll try to issue more feedback soon, but Zombasite is an extremely, very solid game - definitely far more difficult than Din's or Drox.

[Throwback]

I can't put a marker on the map where I am standing, which is bizarre since where else would I want to put a marker?

My clan members know what is happening in other clans. It doesn't really bother me but it is weird.

Please can I have the option to turn off the NPCs in my party talking? Really irritating when they are forever claiming kills (even ones I made!).

[Throwback]

Also I have feedback on a sword&board riposte build warrior.

The skills I am using for my Level 30 riposte build are:

1 x accuracy (1 pt) could probably do without, but 1 point for 20% accuracy on my 10s cooldown skills is too good to pass up.
1 x adrenaline (2 pts) - essential or I have basically 0 DPS for gates, town raids and bosses.
3 x sword mastery - essential for passive hit chance and damage, I think.
1 x Blood lust lvl (1 pt) - not strictly necessary, could probably do without.
4 x Focus: Absorb Damage - of the available Focus options, this is all I use as infection is so difficult to avoid on melee.
4 x Enrage: 22 points in this and I get 0.4 seconds of no skill usage, it's basically useless. I get threat, but at my level it is not high enough and enemies often attack my party members instead of me. Enemies get -defence which I guess is nice, but considering how limited this skill is it simply isn't enough. This skill *may* be fine if you heavily invest in it, but I don't actually think I could survive without investing in lots of other skills. I would definitely like this skill to be buffed.
1 x Multi-strike: This should be a 1-point wonder at 10 skill points, but the damage it is putting out looks a lot less than 1/3. Are armour calculations being made twice perhaps? i.e. once on 1st monster, once on the monster who has been 'splashed'. I honestly don't feel it's working correctly.
6 x shield bash: Honestly this skill is atrocious but absolutely necessary when gimping your DPS by taking a shield. It's decent damage, but 10 seconds cd is an eternity. I think there may be items which give reduced skill cooldown...that is the only way it will become good. The silence is nice, don't get me wrong. It's just that by taking this skill I sacrifice points which I could otherwise use for DPS etc.
2 x Block: Near-guaranteed riposte, essential but if I ever get high enough defense I may drop this. The extra survival is great.
4 x Shield mastery: obvious since I am doing a riposte build
3 x Blocking: obvious
2 x Parry: obvious
2 x Riposte: This is a fun skill and I like it a lot. Once I get the chance to level it, I have no doubt it will be very good. One issue is that it's extremely hard to get to a high level, meaning the stun scales down to the point it is basically worthless. The reason it's (currently) hard to level is because you have to make a massive skill investment elsewhere. This is because:
You need high defence to get lots of blocks - 3 defence skills is nice for this;
You need good armour since you are melee;
you NEED decent basic attack damage. The reason for this is so you can use adrenaline + acid flask to take out big things, which is I think the most skill efficient way to do it. Gates also are horrible with low DPS, not because they are dangerous but because they are boring to whale at;
You need taunt (in theory). Then everyone attacks you, you get lots of blocks and wreck everyone with your multistriking riposte. Of course taunt and multistrike aren't great (not at my level at least) so it doesn't actually work like this 99% of the time.

I put all my stat points into str, dex and vitality, with a tiny amount in intelligence as needed. This is core to the build as otherwise I can't get high attack/defence, or use any of the good 1-hand swords. Luckily my build is extremely light on mana use. Vitality is my highest stat to lessen the odds of being infected.

On rotation for levelling up I have 5 different skills: Sword mastery (essential); Enrage (pretty worthless but in concept essential); Shield bash; 1 of the 3 defence skills; and Riposte. It feels like it is too much, but I am surviving so perhaps it is well balanced.


At level 30 I am finally getting 8 skill points per level. Very interested to see if it becomes easier to focus on my important skills with a bit more skill 'income' and now that they are all starting to even out in cost.